I posted on the other board, but I need to vent as much as I can. Went to the track with my 3rd new motor in recent times. Car ran strong as expected with conservative tune. No detonation, C16, 22.5 lbs boost, just easing her in. Well, I just dumped the oil, and I got little SH**TY pieces of copper like material in the oil. This has happened to all the builds I've run. Different machine shops, builders, cranks, blocks, oil pumps { high volume and standard }. All the same results. I'm thinkin' these little motors just can't handle it. At this point I'm livid!!!!! What am I suppose to do to get these d*m things to live? Might be selling eveything in very short order. I'll have to sleep on it. Brian
I'm tired, I'm sick and tired. ( part II )
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3.8Illusion
boost junkie
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2001
- Messages
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well where did the oil dump from?? maybe the crankcase is getting pressurized?
sixgun86gn
six offender
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- Feb 10, 2002
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The copper is coming from the turbo bearings.They tend to get ate up from fresh rebuilds with all the unfiltered oil with break in particles in it.
Usually I just run some oil through it for cam break in and then change it right away and run that for about 30 minutes and change it again.
If the motor trashed a bearing or anything like that before being rebuilt,the oil cooler in the radiator will hold alot of that crap and put it right into your new motor.
Try changing the oil and flushing it and then see if it goes away,also check the wheel in the turbo for lots of side to side movement.
Usually I just run some oil through it for cam break in and then change it right away and run that for about 30 minutes and change it again.
If the motor trashed a bearing or anything like that before being rebuilt,the oil cooler in the radiator will hold alot of that crap and put it right into your new motor.
Try changing the oil and flushing it and then see if it goes away,also check the wheel in the turbo for lots of side to side movement.
New build with roller ( 400 miles ). Just installed new BBturbo with turbo filter and remote filter. No oil cooler is used. This is the third build in a row with this problem. I will check the turbo anyhow, as I have nothing else to do. Thanks, Brian
sixgun86gn
six offender
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OK,I didnt know that part.
Definitely doesnt sound like a bearing thing.Maybe piston ring particles from seating?
I have had this problem before on fresh builds and it usually goes away after a few oil changes.Never seemed to have any real bad effects.
Definitely doesnt sound like a bearing thing.Maybe piston ring particles from seating?
I have had this problem before on fresh builds and it usually goes away after a few oil changes.Never seemed to have any real bad effects.
Fuelie600 said:
Can you post some high resolution pics, or send em to me?.
Who's *chip* or tune?.
I think we've all had times like what you're havin...
Maybe do an oil analyse, and get some really accurate data on the oil sample, might be worth doing.
buickpower
polytetrafluoroethylene
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
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- 1,079
who does your engines? was it someone around here? on your past motors did the problem go away with time or did you immediately have them rebuilt? I wonder if there is any residual material from the previous builds somehow.
getchasum
MISSING 2 CYLINDERS???
- Joined
- May 23, 2002
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Brian, what was you prior failures (mains, rods or thrust) and was the same block and crank used in this build?
I agree w/ Bruce, do an oil analyse.
Has the oil psi dropped this time?
If it hasn't may try to change the oil and keep a close check on what the filter is catching. My machinist said, he sees metal dust on new engines all the time, I guess you know if it's excessive or not.
If it were the valve guides, I'd think it would fall into cylinders and you would see signs of it smoking, especially if you’re running seals on all valves.
I agree w/ Bruce, do an oil analyse.
Has the oil psi dropped this time?
If it hasn't may try to change the oil and keep a close check on what the filter is catching. My machinist said, he sees metal dust on new engines all the time, I guess you know if it's excessive or not.
If it were the valve guides, I'd think it would fall into cylinders and you would see signs of it smoking, especially if you’re running seals on all valves.
Same bronze looking stuff when I freshened up the wifes bearings on her car.Bottom of the pan was coated good. I thought bearing material, but showed no abnormal signs of wear on mains or rods. IMO what ever it is don't seem to hurt anything, change oil and clean out pan and screen. No issues and good oil pressure here. Running 24lbs w/alky now(she took away the keys though :frown: ....ticket,2 second blast from 45mph+24lbs of boost=90mph :biggrin: )
Red Regal T
Senior Member
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- May 24, 2001
- Messages
- 19,243
Are you running a PTE turbo saver?
Cheeseburger
Active Member
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2004
- Messages
- 1,969
What went inside the motor the first 2 times?
Make sure you are not balloning the converter and taking out the thrust bearing.
Make sure you are not balloning the converter and taking out the thrust bearing.
Cheese, different convertors. First 2 were Art Carr N/L's, and the present on is a PI Vigilante.
Red Regal T. yes, and the turbo also has a filter.
getchasum. Different block and crank. No oil pressure drop. Bottom end is quiet. Prior failures were mains, no thrust. After looking again at these pieces, they are like finger nail clippings in shape and size.
buickpower--noone around here. Everything was new ( again ). The motors required rebuilding.
nojug, possible-
DCVING 6, no oil cooler
Bruce, MER, my tune---found some valve stem seal material on the head. Either the damper caught the seal, or the retainer pounded it. going to pull the spring today and see.
Red Regal T. yes, and the turbo also has a filter.
getchasum. Different block and crank. No oil pressure drop. Bottom end is quiet. Prior failures were mains, no thrust. After looking again at these pieces, they are like finger nail clippings in shape and size.
buickpower--noone around here. Everything was new ( again ). The motors required rebuilding.
nojug, possible-
DCVING 6, no oil cooler
Bruce, MER, my tune---found some valve stem seal material on the head. Either the damper caught the seal, or the retainer pounded it. going to pull the spring today and see.
getchasum
MISSING 2 CYLINDERS???
- Joined
- May 23, 2002
- Messages
- 2,280
You just described what I found in my last build that failed, a semi circle flake/chip....it was the thrust bearing.
Was the crank indexed?
Or have you checked trans line psi?
Are you running an ATR-style roller cam thrust setup, that uses a bronze washer against the front of the block? Could be wear from there; I seem to recall several guys over the years seeing a little metal initially that stopped as this settled in. Also, is the cam sensor drive gear bronze? Maybe pop it out and check the teeth.
Tranny pressures are good. Don't have the numbers, but I verified them after installing the trans.. Trans was built by Vince Janis, and runs flawlessly. Removed the pass side valve springs today, and found 3 broken dampers. 2 of the broken dampers took out my valve seals, and 1 of them pounded on a spring seat shim which is copper plated. This matches the shape and size of my copper pieces for the most part. Spoke with Jack Cotton, Bob @ RPE, and Tom Allen, and it looks like I will be installing Champions "Behive"spring set up with new seals. ( eliminating the dampers ). Now I have to get the pan off ( hopefully ). I am running Jasons girdle, and don't know if it is possible to R&R the oil pan in the car. Brian
