Intake backfire?? Long-ish

[Martin U]

I was out dusting off the GN for the 2nd time. First time out no problems,20lbs boost no knock, no problem. I still hat to change out anti-freeze to rmi-25. Drove it about 1mi to where I was going. It sat for about an hour. About 1/2 way home leaned on it to check for knock from a 45mph roll,--BOOM,Bang or just a very bad sound. It started missing bad,I was able to feather the pedal long enough to get it to a church parking lot engine light on. It had died about 5seconds after making the turn in. I got out popped the hood, and the stock intake tube was blown off the throttle body and the plug in the small hole that used to go to filler tube was missing.
I was barely able to push the intake back on TB, so that was tight before it came off. It fired right up,no light. Drove1/3 mi home,parked it. Might have heard a VERY slight ticking from joint at up-pipe.
Today I went out to check things out. Dead battery,which I never really checked because it fired right up. BUT..
I disconnected intake tube to check it out. I heard some thing inside ratteling. Pulled filter and the front screen from MAF was almost bent in half,broken retainer clips also.
The battery is on charger,IAT sensor re-sealed and new plug sealed in place.
Will hook up TL wed and see if it tells me anything. No oil floating in rad, no water on dipstick, plug wires on ect.
NOW WTF happened?? I never heard of this one. Like I said ran smooth on the drive home.

 

[1 in 2000]

Mine will let out a loud POOF!

It's rare but now and then (usually cold or after sitting for awhile) it does it. Sometimes I have to limp to a good place to pop the hood and reconnect a vacuum line or two. I cannot find anything wrong with it and it's so rare and random I just chalk it up to the gnat is having a bad day today. I'd wait and see if it becomes a problem.

 

[Martin U]

Well Just got back in and here's what I found.
A few microscopic bubbles in rad neck. Nothing abnormal, just fluid changing over. Still no water on dipstick.
Rather noisey below valve cover front pass cylinder, I had hose crammed in my ear. I had put fresh plugs in before ever firing it this season. I will re-check plug tightness when cool hard to do with my pipes. It got down to it's normal sound when warm.
All numbers looked fine except BLM at 141. Best I ever had was 136. I have always wondered about the fel-pro intake gasket seal between cylinders at heads. I used up two new can of starting fluid looking for leaks and idle has never changed. That is why I'm wondering if it could be an internal leak.
I build this to be a strong-as in not breaking hard parts. I have run 25lbs boost w/alky and never any problems.
Could the high BLMs be normal to this engine?
If I cant find an external leak, could it be INTERNAL?
I am open to all suggestions. It does not have to be the fastest just bullit proof best I can make it.

 

[Boostnitup]

Noise under valve cover... and pop in intake

Rounded off camshaft lobe

Experienced it...


Don't run the car till you look at the noise under that valve cover.

 

[ES1]

You need to find out if the noise is in the head - valve cover area or below it.
If below, it could be the header cracked.
This is usually a ticking sound and could be a reason for the lean BLM reading.

 

[Martin U]

I pulled the valve cover tonight. The roller rockers seem to be moving fine. Could I check for wiped lobe with a dial inticator on a few of the rockers. Seen some carbon on the plug wires,but I thought I cleaned them-could have missed the one. Plug was tight.
I am leaning tward a leak, have had one there before. That is why I added heli-coils to every hole in the alum heads. I am running copper ex gaskets from cottons with ATR headers. The headers were flat plated on a granite flat plate before I installed them. It just sounds like a leak to me,but I have never heard a bad cam.
Again all this started when I blew the intake pipe off.
Can you tell I don't want to pull intake manifold yet !
I can't do a roller yet as our tool & die shop does 90% chrysler body sides, and we are somehow owned by them. Going day by day here.
I sure hope all of you trace your jobs back far enough to see if is connected to our US auto industry, and what effect this will have on our country. Happy to say I was the leader on the complete line of dies that produced our hoods. Should have saved a bunch of tryout parts.

 

[Jerryl]

Here is a thread on it.
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/general-turbo-buick-tech/279664-hard-intake-backfire.html

 

[Martin U]

Ha! Jerryl I think you hit it! I would bet that the folded 1st screen I found tried to suck itself down the intake,let go,went lean, then popped. I was thinking it was blown out from the backfire.
How do you think it will function with only one screen for now. Who make the best MAF at a price.
On a side note,Jerryl are you running the new WB TT chip? Fill me in if you are that setup sounds like it needs to find it's way into my car.
Now that I have the valve covers off and things look OK, I'm still going to put an indicator on it..Just because.

Thanks a ton
Marty

 

[Jerryl]

Ha! Jerryl I think you hit it! I would bet that the folded 1st screen I found tried to suck itself down the intake,let go,went lean, then popped. I was thinking it was blown out from the backfire.
How do you think it will function with only one screen for now. Who make the best MAF at a price.
On a side note,Jerryl are you running the new WB TT chip? Fill me in if you are that setup sounds like it needs to find it's way into my car.
Now that I have the valve covers off and things look OK, I'm still going to put an indicator on it..Just because.

Thanks a ton
Marty

Hey Marty,
One screen should be OK, but ...... you should really get a log to determine the overall condition of the MAF.
As far as the best MAF? Any of the aftermarket units, WITH a translator of course. :tongue:

Here is a good thread on the TT 6.0 WB technology!
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/ho...-idea-decrease-your-hot-air-tuning-curve.html

 

[Martin U]

You guys still listening?
I tried to use an indicator on the rockers....waste of time. I did do a compression test because somewhere in searching these posts someone said to do it.
I did it cold, plugs out, 4-5 revs. All the numbers lookes somewhat OK to me. 155-165 lbs. I did this to ease my mind about a wiped cam lobe.
I also found 2 loose plugs on the drivers side.....must have walked away, and never checked them. What is it I would see on this test to tell me the cam was bad?
I'm going to put it back together-with tight plugs! and see hao it sounds and runs.
The cam was one of the 1st pieces I bought before this rebuild and it has been on my mind every day since then. At the time not much info on roller cams. It will get one now, so I get rest easy.

 

[Jerryl]

You guys still listening?
I tried to use an indicator on the rockers....waste of time. I did do a compression test because somewhere in searching these posts someone said to do it.
I did it cold, plugs out, 4-5 revs. All the numbers lookes somewhat OK to me. 155-165 lbs. I did this to ease my mind about a wiped cam lobe.
I also found 2 loose plugs on the drivers side.....must have walked away, and never checked them. What is it I would see on this test to tell me the cam was bad?
I'm going to put it back together-with tight plugs! and see hao it sounds and runs.
The cam was one of the 1st pieces I bought before this rebuild and it has been on my mind every day since then. At the time not much info on roller cams. It will get one now, so I get rest easy.

Quit worrying (like me .... )
You'll grow old faster .............

Seriously, I ran a FT 212/212 cam for 4 years.
Took the motor apart, no issues. Always ran dino oil with a bottle of EOS.
You'll be fine.

Oh, about the plugs.
I forgot to tighten ALL 6 of them one time!!

 

[Martin U]

I guess it's the diemaker in me. I like to build things the right way, or it bothers me. I did get it mostly back together tonight,still have to tweak the down pipe foe a bir more clearance. Fired right up. No nasty sounds ect.
I'll go with the FT cam for now and keep an eye on it. But I want to up grade the MAF and add a translator. ? will I need these new parts when I scrape the cash that new chip,wideband and powerlogger? I hate to spend the cash now if I'm just going to remove them later. I've read a lot of info,but it never seems to sink in until I need to know it. There's that old age thing lurking around some more.
I have read some posts discussing the pro-cons of the innovate vs plx? wb units. Whats your input. I can buildmost things under the sun from prints, but my buddy to me I was to never touch anything electrical unless it said ever ready on it.
Thanks for all your help. I even got the girlfriend involved in the hot-air, she loves it

 

[Jerryl]

I guess it's the diemaker in me. I like to build things the right way, or it bothers me. I did get it mostly back together tonight,still have to tweak the down pipe foe a bir more clearance. Fired right up. No nasty sounds ect.
I'll go with the FT cam for now and keep an eye on it. But I want to up grade the MAF and add a translator. ? will I need these new parts when I scrape the cash that new chip,wideband and powerlogger? I hate to spend the cash now if I'm just going to remove them later. I've read a lot of info,but it never seems to sink in until I need to know it. There's that old age thing lurking around some more.
I have read some posts discussing the pro-cons of the innovate vs plx? wb units. Whats your input. I can buildmost things under the sun from prints, but my buddy to me I was to never touch anything electrical unless it said ever ready on it.
Thanks for all your help. I even got the girlfriend involved in the hot-air, she loves it

To provide better input, tell me; What is your goal?
What did you do to fix the backfire?

 

[Martin U]

Well as you hinted at, it might have been the MAF. I came to the conclusion the the screen let go, then it went full lean, backfired, blew the hose off.
You also said some thing about a late model MAF & translator. Neither of which I have right now. I have never run anything but VR-1 & EOS or ZDDP, so should be ok for now. I will do a vacume test first thing.

My goals- to have a fast reliable running engine. I don't want to run it on the ragged edge, but be able to lean on it without much worry.
I am pretty inexperanced in the tuning dept. I now understand the limits of Turbolink. VERY slow. This engine does not want to wait aroung for the next bit of info from it. After some adjustments to hard parts hitting, I have run 25lbs boost with no knock,@ 780-800+. I might try to take it to the track 1 or 2 time just to see some numbers. Right now it steps out pretty good hitting 3rd, I dont need much more than that for now.
BUT I did build it so it would hold up to more if I ever figger out how to get a turbo bigger that the TA-49 on it........Maybe 2 of them

 

[Jerryl]

Well as you hinted at, it might have been the MAF. I came to the conclusion the the screen let go, then it went full lean, backfired, blew the hose off.
You also said some thing about a late model MAF & translator. Neither of which I have right now. I have never run anything but VR-1 & EOS or ZDDP, so should be ok for now. I will do a vacume test first thing.

My goals- to have a fast reliable running engine. I don't want to run it on the ragged edge, but be able to lean on it without much worry.
I am pretty inexperanced in the tuning dept. I now understand the limits of Turbolink. VERY slow. This engine does not want to wait aroung for the next bit of info from it. After some adjustments to hard parts hitting, I have run 25lbs boost with no knock,@ 780-800+. I might try to take it to the track 1 or 2 time just to see some numbers. Right now it steps out pretty good hitting 3rd, I dont need much more than that for now.
BUT I did build it so it would hold up to more if I ever figger out how to get a turbo bigger that the TA-49 on it........Maybe 2 of them

Sounds GREAT!
With your experience, you may want to consider the SD chip from TurboTweak, to eliminate the need for a MAF and/or translator.
You will need to place the IAT in the manifold, making it a MAT, but is is nothing a die maker can't take care off.

 

[Martin U]

Fisrt thinks first

Morning Jerry,

I'm in a dilemma. HELP. YOU seem to have a vast knowledge of these car> Here is my dilemma.
trying to determin upgrane in a sane and coast effective way. ??

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I think my Ft tappet can is OK for now. Val. VRI-racing oil.ZDDP, every change, question on first ,most reliable up grade on a budget I have been told A LT01 maf & translator might be a good up grade, but no adder performsnce up upgrade with this setup, . . I have t-link but it seems very slow for now. Powerlogger W/ with Wb &what ever extras to go with it & standard pieces to to get the most info from it. I know the sd, 6.0 ship would be very good upgrade also Also money issues again. I know the weakest part of this motor is the FT cam. I have run @25 lbs no knock. omayb 2.5. RT Max
I want a roller for piece of mind. but will POwerlogger work w/o widrband"
I seem to need to a few parts but after nex week Wro knows if i have a job.

I seem to need all these parts but which one first. I alos don't under stand Timing, concering cause and effect on power tuning.> I have the TT chip for alky I 93 Octain
Sig followes. If money is a concern which do I go with.?
I also need a turner to take alook at it in michigan And Dyno In West MI. (hint) Or not to far The take a look at it I want to get it close, maybe a few times it Martin. to have a look at try to steer me right at least in the right=teach me,
i don't want t blow it before I t turn in a better state of tune..Hard to do by myself. I want a bullit proof cam, can but see the need a for wb & power logger and d6 chio. I just cannot do this all at one time. LST MAF & translator. A power logger is just a waste of money if I will not use it in the long run
mart Urbanski
__________________
Martin Urbanski
Grand Rapids MI
grandnat84's photos and albums on webshots

 

[Jerryl]

...........
My goals- to have a fast reliable running engine. I don't want to run it on the ragged edge, but be able to lean on it without much worry.
I am pretty inexperanced in the tuning dept. I now understand the limits of Turbolink. VERY slow. This engine does not want to wait aroung for the next bit of info from it. After some adjustments to hard parts hitting, I have run 25lbs boost with no knock,@ 780-800+. I might try to take it to the track 1 or 2 time just to see some numbers. Right now it steps out pretty good hitting 3rd, I dont need much more than that for now.
BUT I did build it so it would hold up to more if I ever figger out how to get a turbo bigger that the TA-49 on it........Maybe 2 of them

Do you have a HP goal in mind?

The Powerlogger is not an item that is used infrequently.
If you run the TT 6.0 WB controlled chip, the WB is connected to the PL so the ECM can make the corrections.

If money is tight, try to get a hold of Direct Scan.
PL is much nicer, but DS is very effective. :wink:

If you run 25 PSI boost without KR, you know how to tune, and I would suggest an alky system, if “Alky” is not out of the question for you.
Did you run the 25 lbs on race gas?
What does the car now run at the track?

This is what “I” would do;
Keep the cam, run ZDDP with your oil.
Add an alky system with an alky TT chip. (Estimated 50-70 HP)
Pick up a DS for tuning.

100 ways to skin this cat based on goals and budget.

Edit;
Oh yeah ………. forgot to mention one thing;
The guys that REALLY know these cars are all on this board: Dwayne, Lee Thompson, Turbo6x2, Bison, etc. ............ and many of the IC'd guys who I forgot, and/or may have started with a HA.

 

[Martin U]

I do have the razors kit I run pure Meth @2.13 gal Power logger seems that I can add sensors as go. I just took it out and all seems fine. A power logger seems I can just leave the tune alone. How much for a WB. and will I still need a MAF & translator
Mart
PS no track time.. Long way home if it breaks.
Tonigts run I added 10gal 104leaded the akky knob down to about 5-6.

I should get abuddy and go with me the track, slicks..More Dollars/ i siil get dsideways on 2-3-3 shift with pegleg...next year for that.

 

[Jerryl]

I do have the razors kit I run pure Meth @2.13 gal Power logger seems that I can add sensors as go. I just took it out and all seems fine. A power logger seems I can just leave the tune alone. How much for a WB. and will I still need a MAF & translator
Mart
PS no track time.. Long way home if it breaks.
Tonigts run I added 10gal 104leaded the akky knob down to about 5-6.

I should get abuddy and go with me the track, slicks..More Dollars/ i siil get dsideways on 2-3-3 shift with pegleg...next year for that.

$2.13/gal? WOW
I am currently in N MI (Empire) and should have brought my containers. :tongue:

Sounds like you are ready for PL and a TT 6.0 "Set it and forget it" chip.
If your MAF is still good, you don't need the newer style MAF and translator.
Spend the $$ on the WB.
Just download the PL software and be sure to get a WB that is on the pull down menu in the PL so you don't have compatibility issues.

Sounds like the car is running great!

 

[Martin U]

So for the WB all I will need is the cable #3744 correct?