87 we4 gray t
New Member
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- Jan 19, 2003
is it ok to run methanol in the smc kit? anyone done this?
methanol in the smc kit.
- Thread starter 87 we4 gray t
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blackbuick87
Senior Member
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- Mar 11, 2002
You will kill the pump and have no warranty with SMC with methanol. I think someone here tried it and they said it lasted a month.
A pump for methanol needs to have all stainless or brass innards to survive the corrosiveness
A pump for methanol needs to have all stainless or brass innards to survive the corrosiveness
Turbo__Tim
One heck of a Tim!
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
Go ahead and try the denatured with a capfull of the Klotz Steve has. As far as using the kit as it was intended (cooling cylinder temps) is will give you great results.
To use methanol as a fuel involves removing some fuel, (gas)and spraying a heck of a lot more than the SMC pump was intended for (IMO). If you are thinking of using it as a substitute cooling medium it is no better than the denatured.
There isn't that much difference in the 'kick' you could feel between the two fuels either because when you spray as the kit intended, the alchy makes up only about 6 percent of the fuel delivered anyhow.
A search on Methanol injection should give you an idea of how corrosive it is....
To use methanol as a fuel involves removing some fuel, (gas)and spraying a heck of a lot more than the SMC pump was intended for (IMO). If you are thinking of using it as a substitute cooling medium it is no better than the denatured.
There isn't that much difference in the 'kick' you could feel between the two fuels either because when you spray as the kit intended, the alchy makes up only about 6 percent of the fuel delivered anyhow.
A search on Methanol injection should give you an idea of how corrosive it is....
Steve Wood
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
Actually, methanol does a better job than ethanol. The facts are listed here. http://www.afdc.nrel.gov/pdfs/fueltable.pdf
Water does an even better job but a 50-50 mix of methanol-water seems to have proven over the years to be the most volatile and give the best overall performance.
As stated above, however, the cost of dealing with the corrosion factor drives some of us back to denatured. Those that have constructed their own systems with the Shurflo pump seem to have minimized the problems.
Steve Hill/Denis Kefallinos http://members.bellatlantic.net/~steppa/page6.html
have pushed the limits of the system. Bob Avellar, who's page I cannot find at the moment, has also played with different mixtures with good/interesting results.
To compare alky to 100 octane is a bit crude generalization as the performance is far more variable and depends upon the system. Several have exceeded boost and timing levels possible with 100 octane by a significant margin.
Carl Ijames and John Estill have commented at various times on the chemical properties of the various mixes both here, and, in the mailing list archives.
In the end, denatured works pretty well in the SMC kit. Denatured and water will work better but add the problem of a water based lubricant and the "work better" part may not be large enough to be worth the hassle. Methanol/water would be optimum but the pump will not last even with lubricant added.
According to the work published by Ricardo long ago, there comes a point where fuel should be reduced even when the mixture injected is pure water.
It is a more complex subject than it is often given credit today.
blackbuick87
Senior Member
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2002
You mean dry gas purchased at a gas station? That is usually isopropyl, not methanol.
Denatured alcohol has approx. 5% methanol in it. This thread is about 100% methanol, or methanol and distilled water
Denatured alcohol has approx. 5% methanol in it. This thread is about 100% methanol, or methanol and distilled water
Turbo__Tim
One heck of a Tim!
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
Hmmm, you made be curious Bob, So I went surfing, and came up with this....
http://www.turbodynamics.co.uk/water.htm
It's a fact that lowering the intake charge increases the actual percentage of o-2 delivered into the cylinders. Here it can be seen that if methanol lowers the intake temperatures that much more than de-natured, then one could expect real gains in power, along with the benefits of in-cylinder cooling that helps keep detonation away.
It is a shame that that the difference in the intake temperature lowering of the 2 alchys in question isn't in that article, but I recall that methanol was better in this regard. I read a comparison a year ago between the two alchy's but dismissed the difference in intake charge temps as insignificant. I wonder how wrong I was? I recall it was less than 5 degrees difference?
BTW in the article they say the reason for using meth. over de-natured is because meth has 110 octane, while de-natured is 100. The difference in octane between the 2 achys becomes trivial when you consider that alchy is only 7 percent of the final intake fuel charge.
Maybe someone could convert the celsius to faherenheit in the article and calculate what a 5 degree difference in faherenheit would mean in terms of horsepower?
That would be cool...
http://www.turbodynamics.co.uk/water.htm
It's a fact that lowering the intake charge increases the actual percentage of o-2 delivered into the cylinders. Here it can be seen that if methanol lowers the intake temperatures that much more than de-natured, then one could expect real gains in power, along with the benefits of in-cylinder cooling that helps keep detonation away.
It is a shame that that the difference in the intake temperature lowering of the 2 alchys in question isn't in that article, but I recall that methanol was better in this regard. I read a comparison a year ago between the two alchy's but dismissed the difference in intake charge temps as insignificant. I wonder how wrong I was? I recall it was less than 5 degrees difference?
BTW in the article they say the reason for using meth. over de-natured is because meth has 110 octane, while de-natured is 100. The difference in octane between the 2 achys becomes trivial when you consider that alchy is only 7 percent of the final intake fuel charge.
Maybe someone could convert the celsius to faherenheit in the article and calculate what a 5 degree difference in faherenheit would mean in terms of horsepower?
That would be cool...
Turbo__Tim
One heck of a Tim!
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
I did fing this from Chad's Website...
The following readings were typical while making a pass with and without alcohol.
Charge Air Temperatures - dropped from 135 to 105 degrees on a 100 degree day
- dropped from 120 to 90 degrees on a 85 degree day
EGT - dropped from 1450 to 1275 degrees depending on tuning / fuel
- dropped from 1430 to 1240 degrees depending on tuning / fuel
O2 millivolts kept around .770 without any detonation
The link to the entire article...
http://midwestracing.hostin.com/alcohol.htm
The following readings were typical while making a pass with and without alcohol.
Charge Air Temperatures - dropped from 135 to 105 degrees on a 100 degree day
- dropped from 120 to 90 degrees on a 85 degree day
EGT - dropped from 1450 to 1275 degrees depending on tuning / fuel
- dropped from 1430 to 1240 degrees depending on tuning / fuel
O2 millivolts kept around .770 without any detonation
The link to the entire article...
http://midwestracing.hostin.com/alcohol.htm
Turbo__Tim
One heck of a Tim!
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
Another quote from that article...
--Water injection: 0.40 lb/min of water will vaporize, cooling the air down from 150 F to 109 F.
Methanol: 100%: 1.08 lb/min of methanol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 96 F
--From the above, I gather that methanol actually works better than water when it comes to cooling due to its lower vaporization pressure even tho water when it boils releases more heat. I may be wrong as I am not a chemist -- John Estill's
--Water injection: 0.40 lb/min of water will vaporize, cooling the air down from 150 F to 109 F.
Methanol: 100%: 1.08 lb/min of methanol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 96 F
--From the above, I gather that methanol actually works better than water when it comes to cooling due to its lower vaporization pressure even tho water when it boils releases more heat. I may be wrong as I am not a chemist -- John Estill's
Turbo__Tim
One heck of a Tim!
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
John Estill's calcs:
Water injection: 0.40 lb/min of water will vaporize, cooling the air down from 150 F to 109 F.
Another excerpt from the article...
Methanol:
100%: 1.08 lb/min of methanol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 96 F.
50%: 0.55 lb/min of methanol/water will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 107 F
Ethanol: (De-natured) (added by me)
100%: 1.26 lb/min of ethanol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 100 F.
50%: 0.57 lb/min of ethanol/water will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 108 F
Isopropyl:
70%: 0.76 lb/min of alcohol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 107 F.
91%: 1.14 lb/min of alcohol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 104 F.
100: 1.50 lb/min of alcohol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 102 F.
So there you go, a 4 degree difference in the 2 alchys. Now all we need is to do the math...
Water injection: 0.40 lb/min of water will vaporize, cooling the air down from 150 F to 109 F.
Another excerpt from the article...
Methanol:
100%: 1.08 lb/min of methanol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 96 F.
50%: 0.55 lb/min of methanol/water will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 107 F
Ethanol: (De-natured) (added by me)
100%: 1.26 lb/min of ethanol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 100 F.
50%: 0.57 lb/min of ethanol/water will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 108 F
Isopropyl:
70%: 0.76 lb/min of alcohol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 107 F.
91%: 1.14 lb/min of alcohol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 104 F.
100: 1.50 lb/min of alcohol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 102 F.
So there you go, a 4 degree difference in the 2 alchys. Now all we need is to do the math...
Steve Wood
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
What seems to be ignored in the above is the quantity of fluid required to effect the temperature drop. Methanol requires less than ethanol and does a better job. This comment of John's was omitted from the above numbers and appears germane to the discussion This tells me that alcohol injection should cool the air down more than
plain old water, if you inject enough
The problem with this is that the fuel content of the total charge, gasoline plus injected alcohol mixture, is diminished by the volume of injected mixture.
50-50 water requires far less injected mixture but does not lower the temp as much....however, the btu content of methanol is quite a bit higher than the other alcohols. The key seems to be the lesser volume required.
The temperature difference appears to be a red herring in the greater scheme of things. It is easy to see what straight water injection has so many advocates.
Funny how many different sites try to assign a different octane to alcohol rather than the 100-101 that the octane test engine shows. Some give it up to 130-apparently based upon how it appears to perform due to its different chemical properties.
Here is a note by Carl Ijames that was part of the ongoing discussion at the time John responded to a comment by Carl with the above. Note that it does not contradict John's comments but expands the discussion a bit.
From Carl:
<<<<Alcohol, on the other hand, can be viewed as a partially burnt hydrocarbon.
It does not release free oxygen gas in the combustion chamber, and because
some carbon-oxygen and oxygen-hydrogen bonds have already been formed,
fewer will be formed during combustion and so less energy will be released
(skipping a few chemical details
). That lower energy (heat ofcombustion is about half that of gasoline) is why oxygenated fuels give
lower gas mileage - 2 to 4 mpg less on my car. Alcohols do have much
higher heats of vaporization than hydrocarbons which means they will cool
the intake charge better. For comparison, hydrocarbons are about 70-80,
methanol is 262, ethanol is 204, isopropanol is 159, water is 560, and
nitrous oxide about 40, so methanol absorbs about 3.5 times more heat than
gasoline as it vaporizes. Also, the alcohols have high octane ratings,
about 98 (R+M)/2, and wider flammability limits than gasoline which
probably gives more complete combustion. My guess as to why you can go
faster without turning up the boost is that you were slightly too rich
before to suppress detonation (and were probably still getting a little
timing retard). The octane boost and charge cooling let you lean it out
some and keep the timing a little more advanced to make more power and
still be safe.>>>>>
It's an interesting subject and I think the numbers show why GM and others keep coming back to the 50-50 mix of Methanol and water. Seems like Steve Hill was using only 40% Methanol for safety reasons (not flammable). He was running in the high 20's boostwise with four very tiny Ultramist nozzles which really help vaporization and take advantage of the low quantity injected fluid required. Another very valid reason to use methanol is that is CHEAP......but only if your pump can take it.
blackbuick87
Senior Member
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2002
Tim those are some good numbers, but as Steve said they are not taking into account the volumes of alky mixture being injected. On one car flowing a certain amount of air, they vaporized the fuel at that rate. But a different car, with bigger jets and more boost may have different vaporization rates.
Methanol does it all:
It raises octane more than the other alcohols
It lowers the combustion chamber temps more than the other alcohols as it vaporizes
Compared to the other alcohols, it requires less methanol than the others to achieve desired results, which means it is easier to tune.
Next year when I have a little extra cash and can afford to experiment I will be like Steve Yaklin and injecting so much methanol it comes out the tailpipes
Methanol does it all:
It raises octane more than the other alcohols
It lowers the combustion chamber temps more than the other alcohols as it vaporizes
Compared to the other alcohols, it requires less methanol than the others to achieve desired results, which means it is easier to tune.
Next year when I have a little extra cash and can afford to experiment I will be like Steve Yaklin and injecting so much methanol it comes out the tailpipes
blackbuick87
Senior Member
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2002
Steve you said methanol is cheap, how much cheaper is it than denatured?
87 we4 gray t
New Member
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2003
vp methanol is about $2 a gallon.
Steve Wood
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
Originally posted by blackbuick87
Next year when I have a little extra cash and can afford to experiment I will be like Steve Yaklin and injecting so much methanol it comes out the tailpipes
Steve Y says he got the best results from 60% Meth and 40% water...however he did not have a water soluble oil that worked and corrosion ate him up....
I think he tried RMI-25 which Steve C suggested but it gummed things up. 60-40 was GM's best test results when they ran tests for the hot air cars.
Looks like Steve H uses 50-50 and went to denatured due to corrosion.
yep, $2 a gallon is the normal range. Cut that with some water and it gets to be a really nice price compared to denatured.
The other thing that should be mentioned is that methanol is prone to detonation when used as a fuel....when it starts, it is hard to quench. The gasoline faq has some info on this. Not a problem in our style of usage as far as I have seen.
Turbo__Tim
One heck of a Tim!
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
Good discussion, and an interesting subject....
Here is something interesting, and I wonder how many people spraying alchy have taken the time to see exactly how much alchy mix they are spraying in a 12 second period....
On Ray Hall's site I found that Methanol weighs 8 pounds per gallon. Given the flow rates used in the chart below (and they are flow rates that are typical in our application i.e. spraying for cooling, not to add fuel) I have calculated (roughly) the amounts sprayid in 12 seconds.
Methanol:
100%: 1.08 lb/min of methanol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 96 F. 3.2 ounces - exactly
50%: 0.55 lb/min of methanol/water will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 107 F 1.6 oz. (approx)
Ethanol: (De-natured) (added by me)
100%: 1.26 lb/min of ethanol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 100 F. 4.2 oz. approx.
50%: 0.57 lb/min of ethanol/water will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 108 F 1.2 oz. approx
Most of us spraying are using between 4-8 ounces of mix. Each car will be somewhat different, but it is interesting to note that nobody ( I am aware of) is using the best mix to cool down intake temperatures. Most of us use about double the 50-50 mix listed above.
The reason - IMO - is we also need water to cool down the cylinder temperatures. Give up a few degrees in intake temperatures, to get the 200 degrees reduction in cylinder temperatures that stops detonation.
Reducing intake temps give more power due to the infusion of more oxygen, but we still need to cool the cylinders (with water vapor) to reduce knock. Of course the meth. burns cooler, especially if you are running enough to light up the ends of your tailpipes... but I'm not talking about fuel substitution, just using a regular alchy kit the way it was meant to be used.
Vaporization is the key. I believe that you will find that the guys running the 100 psi pumps use more alchy mix in 12 seconds, than do others running 60 pound pumps.
Just some thoughts, and generalities. My 2 cents...
Here is something interesting, and I wonder how many people spraying alchy have taken the time to see exactly how much alchy mix they are spraying in a 12 second period....
On Ray Hall's site I found that Methanol weighs 8 pounds per gallon. Given the flow rates used in the chart below (and they are flow rates that are typical in our application i.e. spraying for cooling, not to add fuel) I have calculated (roughly) the amounts sprayid in 12 seconds.
Methanol:
100%: 1.08 lb/min of methanol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 96 F. 3.2 ounces - exactly
50%: 0.55 lb/min of methanol/water will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 107 F 1.6 oz. (approx)
Ethanol: (De-natured) (added by me)
100%: 1.26 lb/min of ethanol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 100 F. 4.2 oz. approx.
50%: 0.57 lb/min of ethanol/water will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 108 F 1.2 oz. approx
Most of us spraying are using between 4-8 ounces of mix. Each car will be somewhat different, but it is interesting to note that nobody ( I am aware of) is using the best mix to cool down intake temperatures. Most of us use about double the 50-50 mix listed above.
The reason - IMO - is we also need water to cool down the cylinder temperatures. Give up a few degrees in intake temperatures, to get the 200 degrees reduction in cylinder temperatures that stops detonation.
Reducing intake temps give more power due to the infusion of more oxygen, but we still need to cool the cylinders (with water vapor) to reduce knock. Of course the meth. burns cooler, especially if you are running enough to light up the ends of your tailpipes...
but I'm not talking about fuel substitution, just using a regular alchy kit the way it was meant to be used.Vaporization is the key. I believe that you will find that the guys running the 100 psi pumps use more alchy mix in 12 seconds, than do others running 60 pound pumps.
Just some thoughts, and generalities. My 2 cents...
Steve Wood
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
This is a bit long but as Steve H and Denis K have pushed the boost and timing way past most of us, I think it is worth thinking about. Note how much they are injecting. They are using a lot of pressure and fogger nozzles...(technical term for Aquamist
Steve Y thinks they get away with 28-29# of boost and considerable timing because they use relatively small turbos. He has noted that larger turbos are more sensitive to timing. I don't know. He has sprayed more methanol than most of us will ever consider so he does have some experience:
From Steve H's Word doc.
<<<<
Methodologies
Water injection, or water/alcohol injection, acts as a highly effective gaseous intercooler. The only reason for an intercooler is to cool down the hot, compressed air from the turbo. Water can do this job far better because it has a very high property of Latent Heat of Evaporation, 500+ BTU’s compared to gasoline’s 135 BTU’s. and alcohol’s 470.
If you need a bit of extra fuel, a 50-50 ratio of alcohol to water strikes a good balance between the maximum anti-knock capability of water and maximum supplemental fuel.
For example, I use the alcohol as a supplemental fuel source, which allows me to relax my fuel pressure and continue using injectors which are currently max-ed out.
It’s interesting to note that at the relatively high flow rate we use in our system this extra fuel source accounts for approximately 18% of my total WOT fuel requirement.
Alcohols
There are different forms of alcohol which range in BTU’s from approx. 8100 to 9700:
Isopropyl - common rubbing alcohol.
Ethyl alcohol - the type used for consumption.
Methanol - highly corrosive, difficult to find, has the highest oxygen content, highly toxic.
Denatured alcohol - Ethyl alcohol to which a small percentage of Methanol and other chemicals have been added to make it poisonous. It has a high BTU value, is widely available at most hardware stores and is relatively safe to handle.
For these reasons Denatured alcohol is the preferred type of alcohol to use.
Pumps
To satisfy the requirements demanded by the turbo Buick we need a high flow, high-pressure pump, such as the ShurFlo 8000 or the FlowJet 2130 series. These pumps will tolerate alcohol and flow about 2 gpm at 90 to 100 psi. If using the ShurFlo be sure to order the optional Pump Bypass.
This will insure 90+ psi pressure.
Nozzle Types
There are a number of suitable nozzles such as the NOS-type, oil burner type, irrigation type, etc. You may pick your nozzle type based on price, size, ease of installation, or whatever suits you.
Although nozzle type is not critical, per se, the better atomization the nozzle achieves the better the ultimate performance. In any case, multiple nozzles are indicated when flow rates exceed a certain level.
I have hands-on experience with only two types, which I’ll discuss:
Oil Burner Type
A single, “oil burner”-type nozzle will work well, especially on stock engines running boost up to 16-18 pounds. These nozzles are large which means you’ll need the large ‘weld-o-let’ bungs available from Carrolls Supercharging to mount the nozzle to your up-pipe. A system with a single nozzle is simple and inexpensive. For higher flow dual oil burner-type nozzles will yield better control and the necessary spray volume without drowning the engine. A system fabricated around these nozzles can be done relatively cheaply.
Aquamist Type
Aquamist nozzles work exceptionally well. They require specific tubing, connectors and adapters, but I believe these nozzles are superior and well worth the additional expense.
Fluid Volume
Depending upon turbo size, intercooler efficiency, boost pressure and spark timing, the water or water/alcohol spray volume for all nozzle types will likely be between 15 and 30 gallons per hour.
Pump Control
The usual method of controlling the pump is through the use of adjustable Hobbs switch(s). These can be purchase with high current rated contacts which allow direct pump operation w/o the need of a high current slave relay.
Both low and high current rated Hobbs are available from a variety of sources, including Carrolls Supercharging and ShurFlo and many GN parts vendors.
Plumbing
This is an area where you are free to use your own imagination for location. Just remember, your system will use a generous amount of fluid and a two quart reservoir will be sucked low in about 4 full quarter mile runs.
Therefore, depending upon personal driving style, you should plan your tank capacity accordingly.
Examples:
Steve Hill locates a 2.5 gallon tank in the trunk. Fluid is transferred to the smaller windshield washer reservoir via a generic windshield washer pump. A Carrolls (modified Flojet 2130-xx) high-pressure pump, mounted in the engine compartment, sucks from this supply.
This design is somewhat complicated because of the extra systems and plumbing needed to supply the windshield washer reservoir and keep it full.
Denis Kefallinos mounts a 2.5 gallon tank in the trunk. He also locates his high pressure ShurFlo pump in the trunk. In this design he pushes the fluid forward to fill a much smaller, 2 qt pressurized accumulator, which can then be released under full pressure to the nozzles via a Hobbs-activated solenoid valve.
This is a less complicated and much cleaner looking system than mine.
Bob Avellar has his front mounted high-pressure ShurFlo pump suck directly from the windshield washer reservoir.
This is a nicely compact design which may require more frequent refills due to the relatively small washer tank capacity.
Tips
Before installing a water/alcohol system, record your engine parameters wot
Keep the pump and tank lower than the nozzles to help limit siphoning
Always use an in-line filter on the outlet side of the pump
Avoid line restrictions such as a check valve.
Use the black fuel pump test connector as a source of switched power for the pump relay
Try to keep DeltaP ( pump pressure minus boost ) at 60 lbs psi or better.
Use EGT and knock counts for precise tuning.
Use a cold spark plug
FYI Facts
Energy Content Heat of Vaporisation Oxygen Content
Nett MJ/kg MJ/kg wt%
Methanol 19.95 1.154 49.9
Ethanol 26.68 0.913 34.7
MTBE 35.18 0.322 18.2
ETBE 36.29 0.310 15.7
Gasoline 42-44 0.297 0.0
Methanol Ethanol Gasoline
RON 106 107 92 - 98
MON 92 89 80 - 90
Heat of Vaporisation (MJ/kg) 1.154 0.913 0.3044
Nett Heating Value (MJ/kg) 19.95 26.68 42 - 44
Vapour Pressure @ 38C (kPa) 31.9 16.0 48 - 108
Flame Temperature ( C ) 1870 1920 2030
Stoich. Flame Speed. ( m/s ) 0.43 - 0.34
Minimum Ignition Energy ( mJ ) 0.14 - 0.29
Lower Flammable Limit ( vol% ) 6.7 3.3 1.3
Upper Flammable Limit ( vol% ) 36.0 19.0 7.1
Autoignition Temperature ( C ) 460 360 260 - 460
Flash Point ( C ) 11 13 -43 - -39
Vendors and Informational Web Sites
Jay Carter Kits, sold through OGS, http://www.webdynamics-nj.com/OnlyGoodStuff/
Steve Chluspa, SMC Enterprises http://www.geocities.com/rad87gn/tech/SteveCkit.html
Steve Monroe’s web site, http://home.att.net/~stevemon/AlcoholInjMod.html
Carrolls Supercharging, www.carrollsupercharging.com
Chad Schwartz web page, http://www.geocities.com/rad87gn/tech/alcohol.html
Joe Tripodi, http://www.servtech.com/~racerx
A review of important points
Just realize that the higher boost and/or the smaller the turbo, the greater the heat that must be removed.
A mix of denatured alcohol will provide extra fuel (going towards rich) which must be adjusted for.
With the systems described in this primer, you'll need to spray a large quantity of fluid. Use nozzles rated (usually) somewhere between 12-23 gph.
Pump pressure should be 60 lbs Delta or better.
Multiple nozzles allow better atomization characteristics.
Get your car running properly on pump gas *first. Record egt, knock and fuel pressure. You’ll use this data as reference when on water/alcohol.
When you start to mix in alcohol your O2’s will tend to rise slightly on the rich side.
Adjust fuel pressure and boost accordingly.
Monitor knock and adjust boost until egt’s come back into the range you want, or until boost is where you want. You can remove fuel pressure one pound at a time to get higher (leaner) egt’s, and/or adjust alcohol. Monitor knock carefully (see below “words about knock”).
Knock will become your most reliable tool for gauging performance.
Direct Scan is highly recommended for your scanner requirements.
A few words about knock
SUSTAINED knocking is most harmful, especially when the knock starts to spike higher and higher in a saw tooth-like pattern. This is runaway detonation, in one or more cylinders, and is highly damaging to engine components. This type of uncontrolled knocking is what you would get when running insufficient octane and/or air fuel ratio for the boost and timing.
Knock SPIKES may be traced to distribution problems, where one cylinder may temporarily go lean, or to fuel/air flow instabilities at transient throttle. This is different from runaway-type knock.
At high boost/high timing you may see some intermittent spikes but these should be low intensity and decay quickly.
This initial “transient burst” knock phenomenon during the unstable region of wot is surprisingly common among modified turbo Buicks, and is not unique to water/alcohol systems.
About 1 second after going wot, engine fueling and airflow enter a more stabilized region of operation. At this point little or no further knock is expected. However, one or two degrees of millisecond-level knock spike no big deal *as long as knock decays quickly and stops*.
Again, this is not to be confused with sustained knock.
The water or water/alcohol should control most of this. You may have to live with some amount of knock spiking when engine parameters are in a state of flux, such as initial wot.
Parts Listing Courtesy Bob Avellar
SHURflo pump Model 8000
Northern Tool and Eqipment Co. Part# 2687-8216, List $100.95, discount price $69.99 (60psi @ 1.4gpm)
80-100 psi replacement pressure switch – optional
approx... $20. (raises pump pressure and is optional) Contact SHURflo for a distributor near you or Shuster Corp. 4 Wright St. New Bedford, Ma. 02741-3086 (508) 999-3261 part # 94-375-15 $19.30 + $4.80 C.O. D.
Water filter
$3.95 part# 81-0240 Carroll Supercharging Co. Inc. tel. 973/835-1705
3/8" barbed check valve
$3.50, part# 2431 Carroll Supercharging
12v Solenoid valve
$65.00, part# 359115 Carroll Supercharging
(2) Stainless Steel Nozzles
$5.95, Part # 1075 Carroll Supercharging or local plumbing supply $ 3.03 ea.
Oil burner nozzles rated in GPH and either 45 degree or 30 degree spray pattern.
Tank
$5.00, Salvage yard. I used one from a VW that is sturdy, has outlet at bottom and return at top.
windshield washer or coolant overflow tank will do
(4) 1/4" NPT x 3/8" Barbed elbows
$.50 ea. Part # L4-6BN Carroll Supercharging
3/8" Ball valve
$5.00, Home Depot
Fuel injection hoses 3/8" and 1/4"
approx. $10.00 ( lengths vary according to your arrangement of pump and tank) Approx... 8 ft. of 3/8" and 3 ft. of 1/4".
(15) (approx..) Hose clamps and assorted tees and fittings
approx.. $10.00
Hobbs pressure switches
$15.00 ea., Steve Chlupsa (adjustable 4-20psi)
(2) Relays, (30 amp)
$6.00 ea,. Radio Shack
Fuse holders, Assorted wiring
Radio Shack, lighted switch, a green and blue bulb, and connectors for attaching to relays, and switches (also need 1-3amp fuse and 2-10amp fuses) About $20.00
Outside Nozzle holders
Carroll Supercharging $10.00ea. part# 1582 (must be welded to uppipe) I had my own made from steel and TIG welded to pipe
Brass nozzle adapter
$5.20 ea. from local plumbing supply (brass- they came in 2 lengths but I think I used the short ones). Made for holding nozzles in oil burner.
3/8" X 1/4" brass bushings
$3.03 ea. From local plumbing supply. Might be to step down from 3/8" to 1/4" hose.
(2) 1/4" hose barb X M adapter
$.72 ea., local plumbing supply. ( screws into back of nozzle adapter and inside of the following adapter)
(2) 7/8". ODCOMP X 3/4M Adapter
$5.20 ea. From local plumbing supply. (These hold the brass nozzle adapters inside and the whole assembly screws into the outside nozzle holders.
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Steve Y thinks they get away with 28-29# of boost and considerable timing because they use relatively small turbos. He has noted that larger turbos are more sensitive to timing. I don't know. He has sprayed more methanol than most of us will ever consider so he does have some experience:
From Steve H's Word doc.
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Methodologies
Water injection, or water/alcohol injection, acts as a highly effective gaseous intercooler. The only reason for an intercooler is to cool down the hot, compressed air from the turbo. Water can do this job far better because it has a very high property of Latent Heat of Evaporation, 500+ BTU’s compared to gasoline’s 135 BTU’s. and alcohol’s 470.
If you need a bit of extra fuel, a 50-50 ratio of alcohol to water strikes a good balance between the maximum anti-knock capability of water and maximum supplemental fuel.
For example, I use the alcohol as a supplemental fuel source, which allows me to relax my fuel pressure and continue using injectors which are currently max-ed out.
It’s interesting to note that at the relatively high flow rate we use in our system this extra fuel source accounts for approximately 18% of my total WOT fuel requirement.
Alcohols
There are different forms of alcohol which range in BTU’s from approx. 8100 to 9700:
Isopropyl - common rubbing alcohol.
Ethyl alcohol - the type used for consumption.
Methanol - highly corrosive, difficult to find, has the highest oxygen content, highly toxic.
Denatured alcohol - Ethyl alcohol to which a small percentage of Methanol and other chemicals have been added to make it poisonous. It has a high BTU value, is widely available at most hardware stores and is relatively safe to handle.
For these reasons Denatured alcohol is the preferred type of alcohol to use.
Pumps
To satisfy the requirements demanded by the turbo Buick we need a high flow, high-pressure pump, such as the ShurFlo 8000 or the FlowJet 2130 series. These pumps will tolerate alcohol and flow about 2 gpm at 90 to 100 psi. If using the ShurFlo be sure to order the optional Pump Bypass.
This will insure 90+ psi pressure.
Nozzle Types
There are a number of suitable nozzles such as the NOS-type, oil burner type, irrigation type, etc. You may pick your nozzle type based on price, size, ease of installation, or whatever suits you.
Although nozzle type is not critical, per se, the better atomization the nozzle achieves the better the ultimate performance. In any case, multiple nozzles are indicated when flow rates exceed a certain level.
I have hands-on experience with only two types, which I’ll discuss:
Oil Burner Type
A single, “oil burner”-type nozzle will work well, especially on stock engines running boost up to 16-18 pounds. These nozzles are large which means you’ll need the large ‘weld-o-let’ bungs available from Carrolls Supercharging to mount the nozzle to your up-pipe. A system with a single nozzle is simple and inexpensive. For higher flow dual oil burner-type nozzles will yield better control and the necessary spray volume without drowning the engine. A system fabricated around these nozzles can be done relatively cheaply.
Aquamist Type
Aquamist nozzles work exceptionally well. They require specific tubing, connectors and adapters, but I believe these nozzles are superior and well worth the additional expense.
Fluid Volume
Depending upon turbo size, intercooler efficiency, boost pressure and spark timing, the water or water/alcohol spray volume for all nozzle types will likely be between 15 and 30 gallons per hour.
Pump Control
The usual method of controlling the pump is through the use of adjustable Hobbs switch(s). These can be purchase with high current rated contacts which allow direct pump operation w/o the need of a high current slave relay.
Both low and high current rated Hobbs are available from a variety of sources, including Carrolls Supercharging and ShurFlo and many GN parts vendors.
Plumbing
This is an area where you are free to use your own imagination for location. Just remember, your system will use a generous amount of fluid and a two quart reservoir will be sucked low in about 4 full quarter mile runs.
Therefore, depending upon personal driving style, you should plan your tank capacity accordingly.
Examples:
Steve Hill locates a 2.5 gallon tank in the trunk. Fluid is transferred to the smaller windshield washer reservoir via a generic windshield washer pump. A Carrolls (modified Flojet 2130-xx) high-pressure pump, mounted in the engine compartment, sucks from this supply.
This design is somewhat complicated because of the extra systems and plumbing needed to supply the windshield washer reservoir and keep it full.
Denis Kefallinos mounts a 2.5 gallon tank in the trunk. He also locates his high pressure ShurFlo pump in the trunk. In this design he pushes the fluid forward to fill a much smaller, 2 qt pressurized accumulator, which can then be released under full pressure to the nozzles via a Hobbs-activated solenoid valve.
This is a less complicated and much cleaner looking system than mine.
Bob Avellar has his front mounted high-pressure ShurFlo pump suck directly from the windshield washer reservoir.
This is a nicely compact design which may require more frequent refills due to the relatively small washer tank capacity.
Tips
Before installing a water/alcohol system, record your engine parameters wot
Keep the pump and tank lower than the nozzles to help limit siphoning
Always use an in-line filter on the outlet side of the pump
Avoid line restrictions such as a check valve.
Use the black fuel pump test connector as a source of switched power for the pump relay
Try to keep DeltaP ( pump pressure minus boost ) at 60 lbs psi or better.
Use EGT and knock counts for precise tuning.
Use a cold spark plug
FYI Facts
Energy Content Heat of Vaporisation Oxygen Content
Nett MJ/kg MJ/kg wt%
Methanol 19.95 1.154 49.9
Ethanol 26.68 0.913 34.7
MTBE 35.18 0.322 18.2
ETBE 36.29 0.310 15.7
Gasoline 42-44 0.297 0.0
Methanol Ethanol Gasoline
RON 106 107 92 - 98
MON 92 89 80 - 90
Heat of Vaporisation (MJ/kg) 1.154 0.913 0.3044
Nett Heating Value (MJ/kg) 19.95 26.68 42 - 44
Vapour Pressure @ 38C (kPa) 31.9 16.0 48 - 108
Flame Temperature ( C ) 1870 1920 2030
Stoich. Flame Speed. ( m/s ) 0.43 - 0.34
Minimum Ignition Energy ( mJ ) 0.14 - 0.29
Lower Flammable Limit ( vol% ) 6.7 3.3 1.3
Upper Flammable Limit ( vol% ) 36.0 19.0 7.1
Autoignition Temperature ( C ) 460 360 260 - 460
Flash Point ( C ) 11 13 -43 - -39
Vendors and Informational Web Sites
Jay Carter Kits, sold through OGS, http://www.webdynamics-nj.com/OnlyGoodStuff/
Steve Chluspa, SMC Enterprises http://www.geocities.com/rad87gn/tech/SteveCkit.html
Steve Monroe’s web site, http://home.att.net/~stevemon/AlcoholInjMod.html
Carrolls Supercharging, www.carrollsupercharging.com
Chad Schwartz web page, http://www.geocities.com/rad87gn/tech/alcohol.html
Joe Tripodi, http://www.servtech.com/~racerx
A review of important points
Just realize that the higher boost and/or the smaller the turbo, the greater the heat that must be removed.
A mix of denatured alcohol will provide extra fuel (going towards rich) which must be adjusted for.
With the systems described in this primer, you'll need to spray a large quantity of fluid. Use nozzles rated (usually) somewhere between 12-23 gph.
Pump pressure should be 60 lbs Delta or better.
Multiple nozzles allow better atomization characteristics.
Get your car running properly on pump gas *first. Record egt, knock and fuel pressure. You’ll use this data as reference when on water/alcohol.
When you start to mix in alcohol your O2’s will tend to rise slightly on the rich side.
Adjust fuel pressure and boost accordingly.
Monitor knock and adjust boost until egt’s come back into the range you want, or until boost is where you want. You can remove fuel pressure one pound at a time to get higher (leaner) egt’s, and/or adjust alcohol. Monitor knock carefully (see below “words about knock”).
Knock will become your most reliable tool for gauging performance.
Direct Scan is highly recommended for your scanner requirements.
A few words about knock
SUSTAINED knocking is most harmful, especially when the knock starts to spike higher and higher in a saw tooth-like pattern. This is runaway detonation, in one or more cylinders, and is highly damaging to engine components. This type of uncontrolled knocking is what you would get when running insufficient octane and/or air fuel ratio for the boost and timing.
Knock SPIKES may be traced to distribution problems, where one cylinder may temporarily go lean, or to fuel/air flow instabilities at transient throttle. This is different from runaway-type knock.
At high boost/high timing you may see some intermittent spikes but these should be low intensity and decay quickly.
This initial “transient burst” knock phenomenon during the unstable region of wot is surprisingly common among modified turbo Buicks, and is not unique to water/alcohol systems.
About 1 second after going wot, engine fueling and airflow enter a more stabilized region of operation. At this point little or no further knock is expected. However, one or two degrees of millisecond-level knock spike no big deal *as long as knock decays quickly and stops*.
Again, this is not to be confused with sustained knock.
The water or water/alcohol should control most of this. You may have to live with some amount of knock spiking when engine parameters are in a state of flux, such as initial wot.
Parts Listing Courtesy Bob Avellar
SHURflo pump Model 8000
Northern Tool and Eqipment Co. Part# 2687-8216, List $100.95, discount price $69.99 (60psi @ 1.4gpm)
80-100 psi replacement pressure switch – optional
approx... $20. (raises pump pressure and is optional) Contact SHURflo for a distributor near you or Shuster Corp. 4 Wright St. New Bedford, Ma. 02741-3086 (508) 999-3261 part # 94-375-15 $19.30 + $4.80 C.O. D.
Water filter
$3.95 part# 81-0240 Carroll Supercharging Co. Inc. tel. 973/835-1705
3/8" barbed check valve
$3.50, part# 2431 Carroll Supercharging
12v Solenoid valve
$65.00, part# 359115 Carroll Supercharging
(2) Stainless Steel Nozzles
$5.95, Part # 1075 Carroll Supercharging or local plumbing supply $ 3.03 ea.
Oil burner nozzles rated in GPH and either 45 degree or 30 degree spray pattern.
Tank
$5.00, Salvage yard. I used one from a VW that is sturdy, has outlet at bottom and return at top.
windshield washer or coolant overflow tank will do
(4) 1/4" NPT x 3/8" Barbed elbows
$.50 ea. Part # L4-6BN Carroll Supercharging
3/8" Ball valve
$5.00, Home Depot
Fuel injection hoses 3/8" and 1/4"
approx. $10.00 ( lengths vary according to your arrangement of pump and tank) Approx... 8 ft. of 3/8" and 3 ft. of 1/4".
(15) (approx..) Hose clamps and assorted tees and fittings
approx.. $10.00
Hobbs pressure switches
$15.00 ea., Steve Chlupsa (adjustable 4-20psi)
(2) Relays, (30 amp)
$6.00 ea,. Radio Shack
Fuse holders, Assorted wiring
Radio Shack, lighted switch, a green and blue bulb, and connectors for attaching to relays, and switches (also need 1-3amp fuse and 2-10amp fuses) About $20.00
Outside Nozzle holders
Carroll Supercharging $10.00ea. part# 1582 (must be welded to uppipe) I had my own made from steel and TIG welded to pipe
Brass nozzle adapter
$5.20 ea. from local plumbing supply (brass- they came in 2 lengths but I think I used the short ones). Made for holding nozzles in oil burner.
3/8" X 1/4" brass bushings
$3.03 ea. From local plumbing supply. Might be to step down from 3/8" to 1/4" hose.
(2) 1/4" hose barb X M adapter
$.72 ea., local plumbing supply. ( screws into back of nozzle adapter and inside of the following adapter)
(2) 7/8". ODCOMP X 3/4M Adapter
$5.20 ea. From local plumbing supply. (These hold the brass nozzle adapters inside and the whole assembly screws into the outside nozzle holders.
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