Methanol Injection Instead of Intercooler

[InvisibleSun]

Hi,

I am new to this forum but have enjoyed reading the posts very much. I drive an 02 Trans Am that now has a 427ci Darton Wet Sleeved block sitting in it. We are putting an F1-R supercharger in and are trying to figure out the best way to keep things cool. A friend of mine said that this forum is a great resource for answers on alky injection, and I agree!

We are thinking of running NO intercooler, just methanol injection. Our goal is to hit around 18-20 psi and at least 800 RWHP. Do you guys think this is possible? What kind of luck are you all having with running alky only and no intercoolers?

Thanks for your help!

 

[EclipseTurbo]

Get the intercooler. You may have heard of methanol cars running no intercoolers, but they have 1600cc methanol injector at each cylinder. Your methanol injection is not close to that amount injected.

Anything you can do to bring the temp down before the injection, the alcohol will bring it down even more = more power.

 

[InvisibleSun]

What if we set it up to inject that much?

The thinking is that the intercooler will suck up 2 or 3 psi from the supercharger. If we go with injection only, you may not be able to run quite as much as if you had an intercooler, but you would gain that 2 or 3 psi back. Plus, an efficient intercooler that can handle an F1R on a 427 would have to flow at least 1600 CFM, which would make it too big to really fit anywhere, even if I gut the front bumper...

 

[bruce]

I've been sort of doing what you're hinting at.

I took the Intercooler off my car, and added a 7th injector, which runs full time to help cool the charge. But, I've made some other changes to optimize it.
Some pics of it are here.
http://home.woh.rr.com/brucesgn/

 

[CopGn]

Bruce what have been your results? Did you do any 1/4 mile testing?

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by CopGn
Bruce what have been your results? Did you do any 1/4 mile testing?

I've seen MAF temps about 20-30dF warmer then with the I/C.

But, there are other benefits, as in no heat soaking of the I/C. No interheater effects, no waiting for the I/C to cool back off, weight savings, increased boost. Independently no biggie with each item, but overall, the I/C is still sitting on the floor in the shop.

For an I/C to be really effective means being huge and lots of air flow, less then that and the advantages lessen quickly, IMO.

And I just sent a check off for a Water Injection set-up which should get me to at least the same cooling as the stocker, and I can then run in boost as long as I want without any of the downsides of dragging an I/C along, <g>..

 

[Razor]

Why not just run alky all the time and be done with it. At 2.50 a gallon its a lot cheaper than race gas, burns clean, yes you'll go through more of it than race gas, but it works.

Just make your whole fuel system alcohol compatible and your done.

I just found fuel cell foam thats methanol compatible today... plastic tank, big pump..correct regulator, large injectors..add another nozzle to mist the air coming into the motor like an additional injector at higher boost levels...

Dont see a problem at that power level. Indy cars run on methanol..they make 1000 HP+ on an itty bitty motor.

 

[InvisibleSun]

In theory it sounds great, but if I take a road trip to Las Vegas (3 hours) where am I gonna get a methanol fill-up?

 

[Razor]

32 Gallon fuel cell

Or do a dual system, with two separate fuel systems.. dont know if just saturating air you can accomplish what you want to do..you can always try, its not going to break the bank or hurt the motor trying. You can do a pretty trick system under 700.00 that will blow tons of methanol into the motor..maybe even less $$$

Its just a thought..

Julio

 

[InvisibleSun]

Just in case anyone is interested - here is what Corky Bell said about this same question:

Hi Erick,
> Your project sounds like it will be fun.
>
> I am not very enthused about injecting anything other than good
> gasoline. Water, ethanol, and methanol can all be made to work okay,
> but too many aspects of doing so just stack up to be less than ideal.
>
> Several things:
> 1. all of the substances injected and vaporized will take up space
that
> would otherwise be occupied by oxygen. Consuming oxygen is the basis
of
> making power.
>
> 2. vaporizing straight water takes up just over twice the heat of
> vaporizing methanol. Far better cooling. It is cooling that
supresses
> knock.
>
> 3. the octane added by methanol can better (and cheaper) be added to
the
> gasoline by use of toluene.
>
> 4. nothing guarantees the methanol vapor will get an equal
distribution.
>
> 5. intercoolers take out more heat than vaporizing water, therefore,
far
> more than vaporizing methanol.
>
> 6. the air/air unit is almost always the more efficient, but water
based
> units are easily more compact and still work well.
>
> 7. any IC will lose some flow, but easy enough to repulley. A small
> flow loss thru an IC is not of concern for superchargers.
>
> 8. intercoolers do not have a multiple failure mode. water injectors
> can fail a dozen ways.
>
> Good luck, hollar if I can help.
>
> Corky

 

[WFO]

lee thompson's hotair car has gone 10.7x's with no intercooler and a big shot of methanol.

while it's true that water removes more heat than methanol,water isn't flammable which isn't gonna help the combustion process any...

i'd go with a progressive alky injection setup...

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by InvisibleSun
Just in case anyone is interested - here is what Corky Bell said about this same question:

And in his book he calls Water Injection a band aid.
I'm just glad he wasn't involved with any of the WWII Fighter Aircraft design. WI was a key element in the Fighters developing the power that they did.

For the real answers about WI you need to go back to the original research work, where they reported RESULTS not opinions. Try goggling for NACA, and reviewing the In Cylinder Cooling Subject Matter.

Also, Sir Harry Ricardo's Book, The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine, answers the issue with research, and results.

More, importantly in his book, he, mentions Interheaters.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by WFO

while it's true that water removes more heat than methanol,water isn't flammable which isn't gonna help the combustion process any...

Water is made up of Oxygen, and Hydrogen. The same ingredients as the Space Shuttles Liguid Fuel Motors.

Robert Harris posted at DIY-EFI the process that does take place in the cylinder during combustion, and the break down of water is interesting.

In very quick summmary, running richer then Stoic is about in cylinder cooling, and the engine can use a fair bit of water in lieu of gasoline. Again, Sir Harry Ricardo explains things rather well.

 

[WFO]

Originally posted by bruce
Water is made up of Oxygen, and Hydrogen. The same ingredients as the Space Shuttles Liguid Fuel Motors.

i realize that,but for the oxygen and hydrogen to work as fuel/oxidizer they must be split at the right time in the right amounts.i'm guessing that's the reason the space shuttle doesn't run on tap water .

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by WFO
i realize that,

Not in your first comment.
It was at least poorly stated, if you'd read some of the NACA stuff and/or Ricardo, you'd better understand what does go on.
Might even search for Ijames and his explaination of detonation, which does an excellent job of tieing things together.
And while water isn't flamable, neither is gasoline, but neither statement, really means much by itself, as far as what goes on in the actual combustion reaction.

while it's true that water removes more heat than methanol,water isn't flammable which isn't gonna help the combustion process any...

 

[Syclone0044]

I was quite disappointed with Corky's response on methanol injection. It seemed written solely to create FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt). It also seems apparent he has limited or no experience with methanol injection. Few of his claims actually pan out in real world use. I started injecting methanol in addition to my pump gas and the results have exceeded my wildest expectations. I set a friend up with the same thing on his truck and he had similar experiences. He said he wishes he would have got it a long time ago.

I won't bother to challenge each of Corky's points one by one in this post, but I will mention that Methanol releases BTUs when it combusts and water does not, so maybe in his theory water has better cooling but methanol actually combusts and creates higher cylinder pressure and that's what actually drives the piston down turning the crank...

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by TookyCat
I was quite disappointed with Corky's response on methanol injection. It seemed written solely to create FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt). It also seems apparent he has limited or no experience with methanol injection.

It's really to the stage of having to look at the original research to see what the truth often is. So many experts have been rewritting research papers with their own opnions mixed in, some of it gets laughable. And with some of the original papers and books being so old, they're getting more and more difficult to find.
At times, Corky's book has the aire of, Just Buy My Stuff.