Methanol vs Ethanol

[qksilverf1]

ok ive been doing some research on the internet and what do you know, the internet sucks at giving consistent info. here goes

this site says a 50.50 water ethanol mix is best and the Meth is not good.
i quote
" 4. Methanol, as an additive, is not a practical choice as it is prone to pre-ignition, is not safe to handle and is not readily available."
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html
I dont see how the "prone to pre-ignition (knock)" can be true due to its high octane rating and that ALOT of people use it to reduce knock Including those people in the indy 500 who run straight meth for fuel.


Other sites say methanol is the best, one even says straight meth is not corrosive to your fuel system or rubber.....
"Methanol has no effect on rubber, neoprene or OEM carburetor or fuel system parts nor does it get stale like gas does. But it will corrode aluminum as plain water does if it is not drained and allowed to evaporate from the fuel system over an extended length of time."
http://sneakypetespullers.com/technical Articles.htm
Why do so many people talk about how corrosive to the fuel system it is?

Wikipedia gives these octane ratings for the fuels
Methanol 123
Ethanol 129
from (scroll half way down to the table)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline

This site says
Methanol 99
Ethanol 100
http://www.leeric.lsu.edu/bgbb/7/ecep/auto/m/m.htm

This site says
Ethanol 113
http://www.gov.mb.ca/est/energy/ethanol/ethanolfaq.html

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107888
FastAttack says
"Alky , is a type of alchohol used primarly to decrease the temperatures of the charged air , although cheaper than methanol , it will vaporize a lot faster than methanol or water thus not having the same level of efficiency in cleaning your motor and preventing detonation."
Doent all fuel vaporize by the time it is ignited anyway??? im pretty sure enough heat is produced during the compression stroke to vaporize all the fuel "gas/meth/eth/water" etc. in the cylinder also if eth has a higher octane rating than meth wouldnt it be better at preventing knock?

Here is an MIT PDF about Direct Ethanol Injection
http://lfee.mit.edu/public/LFEE_2005-001_RP.pdf

Other sites with info if you are interested
http://www.energy.ca.gov/afvs/vehic...s/methanol.html
http://www.agriculture.state.ia.us/e85q&a.html
http://www.palatineoil.com/fuels.html
http://www.ncga.com/ethanol/main/your_car.htm

So can someone who actually knows please clear up my confusion.
please tell me what the differences between ethanol and methanol are (as well as advantages/disadvantages to each) and try to clear up some of the contradictions found in my links.
Again please only post if you actually know what you are talking about and can back it up with an understandable scientific explaination
Thanks

 

[qksilverf1]

Anyone???

 

[Blazer406]

Don't tell Razor that "Methanol, as an additive, is not a practical choice as it is prone to pre-ignition, is not safe to handle and is not readily available" .... cause he has run some low 10's shooting for the 9's with straight methanol I believe.... in his alky injection setup.

Most speedshops carry methanol too. I bought 6 gallons last week..... 2.99/gal down here in MS.

 

[bruce]

ok ive been doing some research on the internet and what do you know, the internet sucks at giving consistent info. here goes

this site says a 50.50 water ethanol mix is best and the Meth is not good.
i quote
" 4. Methanol, as an additive, is not a practical choice as it is prone to pre-ignition, is not safe to handle and is not readily available."
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html
I dont see how the "prone to pre-ignition (knock)" can be true due to its high octane rating and that ALOT of people use it to reduce knock Including those people in the indy 500 who run straight meth for fuel.


Other sites say methanol is the best, one even says straight meth is not corrosive to your fuel system or rubber.....
"Methanol has no effect on rubber, neoprene or OEM carburetor or fuel system parts nor does it get stale like gas does. But it will corrode aluminum as plain water does if it is not drained and allowed to evaporate from the fuel system over an extended length of time."
http://sneakypetespullers.com/technical Articles.htm
Why do so many people talk about how corrosive to the fuel system it is?

Wikipedia gives these octane ratings for the fuels
Methanol 123
Ethanol 129
from (scroll half way down to the table)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline

This site says
Methanol 99
Ethanol 100
http://www.leeric.lsu.edu/bgbb/7/ecep/auto/m/m.htm

This site says
Ethanol 113
http://www.gov.mb.ca/est/energy/ethanol/ethanolfaq.html

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107888
FastAttack says
"Alky , is a type of alchohol used primarly to decrease the temperatures of the charged air , although cheaper than methanol , it will vaporize a lot faster than methanol or water thus not having the same level of efficiency in cleaning your motor and preventing detonation."
Doent all fuel vaporize by the time it is ignited anyway??? im pretty sure enough heat is produced during the compression stroke to vaporize all the fuel "gas/meth/eth/water" etc. in the cylinder also if eth has a higher octane rating than meth wouldnt it be better at preventing knock?

Here is an MIT PDF about Direct Ethanol Injection
http://lfee.mit.edu/public/LFEE_2005-001_RP.pdf

Other sites with info if you are interested
http://www.energy.ca.gov/afvs/vehic...s/methanol.html
http://www.agriculture.state.ia.us/e85q&a.html
http://www.palatineoil.com/fuels.html
http://www.ncga.com/ethanol/main/your_car.htm

So can someone who actually knows please clear up my confusion.
please tell me what the differences between ethanol and methanol are (as well as advantages/disadvantages to each) and try to clear up some of the contradictions found in my links.
Again please only post if you actually know what you are talking about and can back it up with an understandable scientific explaination
Thanks

Well now that you've read all the theory, all you have to do is search TB.Com, and read what's been documented as what works and what doesn't. Getting other opinions is fine, but, when you have as many people that have documented their results, all the other folks opinions, are just that, opinions.

While yes, Razor is a vendor, he happens to also be a well informed person, that's spent the time reseaching what works and doesn't works. About all I can really say, is I've seen his car in action, seen what the calibration was like, and noted his results. They be impressive in anyone's book, and this ain't a paid endorsement.

 

[Razor]

Thanks Bruce.

Problem with the net is you have XYZ writes a lot of technical jargon... unless there is real world documented HP.. its all BS. Becuase something is written doesnt make it true.

I'll say it again.. "Becuase something is written.... doesnt make it true" So your information is flawed becuase of the source's.

Your choice is pay attention to those creating power.. or pay attention to those spewing myth..

In non technical jargon. What works is methanol. Will ethanol work.. dont know. I have no access to it. I'm glad mathanol works, and its available to me. From there starts your research by doing

Peace. This injection stuff there is a little too it. And an over abundance of companies wanting to "Cheese Wiz" the process. Cheese Wiz is not made of real Cheese Careful who you believe tells you its real.. :wink:

 

[qksilverf1]

Has anyone experiemented with alcohol? just curious if meth is significantly better or only slightly better

 

[Razor]

Has anyone experiemented with alcohol? just curious if meth is significantly better or only slightly better

All that reading and you didnt learn

Methanol is alcohol. Its a form of alcohol. Like Denatured, Isopropyl, Jack Daniels, etc.. they are alcohol.

Dont spray Jack.. That would be a crime :biggrin:

 

[qksilverf1]

sorry, yes i know they are all types of alcohol, i usually refer to ethanol as "alcohol" i was referring to ethanol as opposed to methanol. i should have been specific

 

[bison]

Has anyone experiemented with alcohol? just curious if meth is significantly better or only slightly better

Ethanol is too expensive. It has a little more btu's by weight compared to meth, but i prefer meth. Pure meth. Been using it for ten years now.Your concerned with the antidetonant properties of it more than anything. It has a very narrow detonation point. You wont see it with your v-6, even at 30 psi. Razors car says enough. Meth, meth, meth.

 

[Alky V6]

I run straight methanol and nothing but methanol. Well, a little nitrous too. I will never go back to gasoline. Methanol has too many properties that make it the perfect racing fuel. High octane (in my experience 125-130) that allows more static compression or boost, fantastic latent heat of vaporization value, higher BTU value when taking A/F ratio into account, less thermal stress on the motor, higher product of combustion, very wide A/F tuning range, all add up to more power. Corrosion is a problem if the fuel system maintenance is ignored (draining and flushing after every weekend of racing) and preignition will rear up its ugly head if your tune up isn't right. Your tune up has got to be pretty far off though. Too much timing, too much boost, too much static compression for a particular boost, too lean of an A/F ratio. Nothing new. The same stuff that gets you into trouble with gasoline. With Alcohol though, you don't have the luxury of detonation, the pinging that you hear with gasoline. Alcohol goes straight to preignition with disasterous results. Methanol has a very broad rich range to play with, but the big power is at the lean end of this range. It puts you at the edge of preignition if you get too greedy.

 

[Raymond Bunch]

Hey Don!

I run straight methanol and nothing but methanol. Well, a little nitrous too. I will never go back to gasoline. Methanol has too many properties that make it the perfect racing fuel. High octane (in my experience 125-130) that allows more static compression or boost, fantastic latent heat of vaporization value, higher BTU value when taking A/F ratio into account, less thermal stress on the motor, higher product of combustion, very wide A/F tuning range, all add up to more power. Corrosion is a problem if the fuel system maintenance is ignored (draining and flushing after every weekend of racing) and preignition will rear up its ugly head if your tune up isn't right. Your tune up has got to be pretty far off though. Too much timing, too much boost, too much static compression for a particular boost, too lean of an A/F ratio. Nothing new. The same stuff that gets you into trouble with gasoline. With Alcohol though, you don't have the luxury of detonation, the pinging that you hear with gasoline. Alcohol goes straight to preignition with disasterous results. Methanol has a very broad rich range to play with, but the big power is at the lean end of this range. It puts you at the edge of preignition if you get too greedy.

Always loved your car and happy to see your finally getting that thing diled in. Hope to see it run sometime
Ray

 

[Alky V6]

Thanks Ray. It's a blast to drive. It should be back together sometime in February with a new TA block. In the last motor I was using Carillo. The new one, I'm trying out Oliver. Although, I don't think either would stand up to alcohol preignition any better than the other. Couldn't find anyone that felt comfortable making aluminum rods (BME). They said the cam position was too low on the Buick and would restrict how much meat they could build into the rod where it has to clear the cam. Even with the shorter stroke I'm running (3.06). The track I go to the most is Barona. I should be making monthly trips there when the car is back together. Hope to meet you there sometime.

 

[Raymond Bunch]

Thanks Ray. It's a blast to drive. It should be back together sometime in February with a new TA block. In the last motor I was using Carillo. The new one, I'm trying out Oliver. Although, I don't think either would stand up to alcohol preignition any better than the other. Couldn't find anyone that felt comfortable making aluminum rods (BME). They said the cam position was too low on the Buick and would restrict how much meat they could build into the rod where it has to clear the cam. Even with the shorter stroke I'm running (3.06). The track I go to the most is Barona. I should be making monthly trips there when the car is back together. Hope to meet you there sometime.

Hi Don, hey did you tear it back down due to something breaking? Or just because you decided to go to the T/A block? Eithercase, your on a cutting edge and I know your going to make a huge mark in the turbo buick community....Well, you already have big time in my eyes with your current set up Never seen anything like it before! I'll be on the look out when you get'er back up running and will meet you at Barona...looking forward to it.
Ray

 

[Alky V6]

Hi Don, hey did you tear it back down due to something breaking? Or just because you decided to go to the T/A block? Eithercase, your on a cutting edge and I know your going to make a huge mark in the turbo buick community....Well, you already have big time in my eyes with your current set up Never seen anything like it before! I'll be on the look out when you get'er back up running and will meet you at Barona...looking forward to it.
Ray

In the second movie that XxdarksideXx posted, you'll see me fold a rod off the line. That's why the engine is going through its latest metamorphysis. The nitrous injection was not the reason for the failure. It had already shut down by that point (n2o shuts down at 18 psi). It was a boost spike at peak torque. I was trying to control boost to 22 psi and it spiked to 28. That may not sound like a lot, but you have to keep in mind that my static compression was at 11.27 to one. I had previously calculated that 28 psi would be the point of no return with that motor and the motor proved me right. The good thing that came of it is I now know, unfortunately by proving it, what the critical BMEP and cylinder pressure numbers are for alcohol. The new engine will be running 9.25 to one so that I can safely overboost to 30 without problems. It will also give me come breathing room for a dash of nitro.

 

[Raymond Bunch]

In the second movie that XxdarksideXx posted, you'll see me fold a rod off the line. That's why the engine is going through its latest metamorphysis. The nitrous injection was not the reason for the failure. It had already shut down by that point (n2o shuts down at 18 psi). It was a boost spike at peak torque. I was trying to control boost to 22 psi and it spiked to 28. That may not sound like a lot, but you have to keep in mind that my static compression was at 11.27 to one. I had previously calculated that 28 psi would be the point of no return with that motor and the motor proved me right. The good thing that came of it is I now know, unfortunately by proving it, what the critical BMEP and cylinder pressure numbers are for alcohol. The new engine will be running 9.25 to one so that I can safely overboost to 30 without problems. It will also give me come breathing room for a dash of nitro.

AHHH! That's what happend. I couldn't open any of the vids that XxdarksidexX posted so I didn't know you hurt the engine. Sorry to hear about that :frown: Well bud I will be looking out for you when you debut the T/A set up, I know it's going to be a hand full Nitro...AHH Nitro :tongue:

 

[b4black]

I have never seen a back to back comparison of water vs. methanol vs. ethanol vs. blends. It wouldn't be as easy as just switching them and running down the track. Each would have to be optimized which would take too many runs.


Bottom line is that people have had success with each, so it's safe to conclude that any will do the job. Get whatever ever is cheapest and easiest and then stick with it.

For me, I use 50% ethanol in water. Two reason - it's much less flammable and it's very cheap. I buy E85 for $2/gallon and distilled water for $1/gallon. Mix the two, and the small amount of gasoline floats to the top (pour it off and into the lawn mower).

I probably should have start with 100% water. It's cheapest and doesn't change the A/F ratio.

 

[Alky V6]

When having to use an anti-detonation solution your trying to do two things. Absorb heat to cool the combustion process and/or interfere with the combustion process and slow it down. If your looking to optimize this effect, in other words gain the most power from it,

1) you want to choose a solution that has the best latent heat of vaporization. This is the property of a chemical that causes it to absorb heat as it evaporates. You want this effect to be as large as possible. This way, your supplying your engine with a denser intake charge. This translates into better engine volumetric efficiency and better VE equals more power. Any chemical, including water, has a property listed with it called latent heat of vaporization.

2) Everyone knows that if you introduce water or any other chemical into your engine that is not a fuel, you are displacing a certain volume of your intake charge with a dead chemical instead of air and fuel. You may be eliminating detonation and the need to excessively retard the timing and/or overly richen the A/F ratio, and gaining the ability to raise boost, but to me, to trade off fuel for water is backwards. The whole purpose of an optimized engine is to burn as much fuel as you can pack into your engine. Now, if a very high octane fuel that has an excellent latent heat of vaporization, even better than water, and has a slower flame front speed than gasoline can be added to the process, why wouldn't you.

Look up the chemical properties.

The above only pertains to a situation where optimization is the mission of the day. I'll bet you could even spray Kool Aid and it would work.

It all depends on how picky you want to be about the big HP number.

 

[qksilverf1]

i thought water had the highest latent heat of vaporization of any liquid minus mercury. i would imagen this is true becase alcohol evaporates before water evaporates

 

[Alky V6]

i thought water had the highest latent heat of vaporization of any liquid minus mercury. i would imagen this is true becase alcohol evaporates before water evaporates

I have to tell you that I'm not a chemist so I can only refer to what I have looked up. Some of you may be able to correct me if you see something wrong. I understand latent heat of vaporization of a liquid to be a measure of heat a substance absorbs as it changes state from a liquid to a gaseous state. If I plunge my finger in a bottle of water and hold it to a slight wind, it will cool my finger. If I do the same with methanol, my finger will cool before I can even get it in the wind. Guys, tell me if my figures are wrong, but this is what I came up with for latent heat of vaporization numbers for methanol and water.

Methanol 1.17 MJ/kg
Water .0000022 MJ/kg
Gasoline .18 MJ/kg
Ethanol .93 MJ/kg
Nitromethane .56

I assume the higher the number the better.
The water figure was converted from 540 cal/g. Judging by the answer, I may have converted incorrectly. Help anyone? I couldn't find a water figure in MJ/kg.
I converted calories to joules (x4.1868), then megajoules (x.000001), and then grams to kilograms (x.001).

 

[Razor]

i thought water had the highest latent heat of vaporization of any liquid minus mercury. i would imagen this is true becase alcohol evaporates before water evaporates

Think you just answered your own question.."i would imagen this is true becase alcohol evaporates before water evaporates"

What do you think happens when the water shot in doesnt evaporate

Don, great rite up.. i'd help with the math.. but this head cold is killing me :wink:

No need to prove it to me.