Methanol vs Ethanol

[PhilM]

We've been using ethanol for awhile now... again I havent *directly* compared them, but it works for us. One of these days ill do a direct comparison, athough i'd image the pickup would probably be only slightly noticeable and actually hard to compare since you need to reset the injection parameters... so much for holding a control variable at optimal levels ?!

I think it would be more important as to what is more easily obtained by you, based on your location and suppliers in the area...

Ahhh, the latent heat #'s ... I think they're a lil off, its been awhile since chem but...

L(H2O) = 2.262 MJ/kg (Pretty darn sure of that - your number seems quite a bit off - you even said it - water takes longer to evap than alky
L(Meth) ~= 1.5 to 1.7MJ/kg so your pretty good on that
L(Eth) ~= 0.93MJ/kg - right on
all at 1atm, of course...

Your math just went off from a lil error, here's it in factor label:
(540cal/g)(4.19J/cal)(1MJ/1000000J)(1000g/kg) = 2.262MJ/kg ... just a tip that helped me on doing that conversion stuff: make sure your units cancel to provide the right output units. You could even do it "upside-down" and it would still work; ie. you started with 1g/540cal... your output would just be inversed too.

You cannot simply look at these numbers however, as the latent heat will only describe the energy in heat absorbed by that chemical... combustion heat, pressurization, and boiling points (eth has about 20deg F higher than Meth)...and many other vars. play a large role too. Also, latent heat formulation is based directly on boiling points - ie. to convert 1 mass of water at its boiling point 100deg C to the same mass of "steam" vapour, you need that latent heat energy/mass... Gasoline's boiling point varies GREATLY, based on all the chemicals your gas station puts in it (emissions, that detergent crap, etc.)... so idk how they find that number... i guess its just an average?

As for the question of if higher L's are better, yes... but like I said, there's always more to a story than one set of constants... heck, its math... if all of our explainations could be based on one constant or formula, well then nature would be damn predictable and I'd be making my nanotube ladders to the moon. So thats why its more fun to me to just dump a gallon of each in the tank and goto town!

 

[Alky V6]

Ahhh, the latent heat #'s ... I think they're a lil off, its been awhile since chem but...

L(H2O) = 2.2 MJ/kg (Pretty darn sure of that - your number seems quite a bit off)
L(Meth) ~= 1.5 to 1.7MJ/kg so your pretty good on that
L(Eth) ~= 0.93MJ/kg - right on
all at 1atm, of course...

You cannot simply look at these numbers however, as the latent heat will only describe the energy in head absorbed by that chemical... combustion heat, pressurization, and boiling points (eth has about 20deg F higher than Meth)...QUOTE]
Thanks Phil. I was sure that water figure was wrong. So meth is the closest thing to water and a fuel to boot.

Next myth buster question. With the meth diluted in a 50% water mix, which is what I have read over and over in different sources is the most effective and preferred method all the way back to the WWII era, does it actually burn used as an antidetonant for a gasoline engine or is it only used as an antifreeze for cold weather situations like I have read?

 

[qksilverf1]

Think you just answered your own question.."i would imagen this is true becase alcohol evaporates before water evaporates"

What do you think happens when the water shot in doesnt evaporate

Don, great rite up.. i'd help with the math.. but this head cold is killing me :wink:

No need to prove it to me.

I believe what happens is that the water does always end up evaporating, unlike alcohol which will cool the charge air, water will actually cool the top of the piston/cylinder walls etc. i think this is how water helps prevent knock, by reducing the temps in the cylinders where as eth/meth cool the inake charge and raise octane

 

[Alky V6]

I would guess that a good indicator as to whether the meth burns or not would be whether or not there is any change in the A/F ratio when injected. Can anyone help with any results on that?

 

[NHRA Super Gas]

I run straight methanol and nothing but methanol. Well, a little nitrous too. I will never go back to gasoline. Methanol has too many properties that make it the perfect racing fuel. High octane (in my experience 125-130) that allows more static compression or boost, fantastic latent heat of vaporization value, higher BTU value when taking A/F ratio into account, less thermal stress on the motor, higher product of combustion, very wide A/F tuning range, all add up to more power. Corrosion is a problem if the fuel system maintenance is ignored (draining and flushing after every weekend of racing) and preignition will rear up its ugly head if your tune up isn't right. Your tune up has got to be pretty far off though. Too much timing, too much boost, too much static compression for a particular boost, too lean of an A/F ratio. Nothing new. The same stuff that gets you into trouble with gasoline. With Alcohol though, you don't have the luxury of detonation, the pinging that you hear with gasoline. Alcohol goes straight to preignition with disasterous results. Methanol has a very broad rich range to play with, but the big power is at the lean end of this range. It puts you at the edge of preignition if you get too greedy.

Agree 100%. We ran only methanol in our carbuerated SG car for years, wouldn't dream of trying to tune with gas for NHRA purposes.

All the references above to methanol being just an additive is complete BS. Denatured alcohol is for cleaning paint brushes and water is for drinking. Stick to methanol for going fast.

 

[Razor]

I believe what happens is that the water does always end up evaporating, unlike alcohol which will cool the charge air, water will actually cool the top of the piston/cylinder walls etc. i think this is how water helps prevent knock, by reducing the temps in the cylinders where as eth/meth cool the inake charge and raise octane

I have first hand knowledge of a few L67 SC motors that got aggressive shooting mix and broke pistons from hydro. This happened last winter.

So if there is not sufficient temp and the volume is high enough... KABooom.. bring out the shovel..

That is why if you look at nozzles for aquamist systems they are really small. To try and atomize the water to very fine droplets so it has a chance to evap. Shoot water into your motor with a nitrous nozzle at 150 PSI.. you'll break pistons. You wont with alcohol.

 

[Razor]

I would guess that a good indicator as to whether the meth burns or not would be whether or not there is any change in the A/F ratio when injected. Can anyone help with any results on that?

Yes.. huge.. the amount of drop depends on how much is injected. Guess why the progressive controllers have come into the market place.. that is to aid in that drop in AF that would happen with a hobbs switch style system.

I have a customer with an EVO8.. if he doesnt shoot alky into his motor at 4-5 PSI, his AFR will jump to 18:1.. he hits the motor hard with meth and he says it helps wake/spool the turbo up.

Now water... that leans the motor out not richen it. As it displaces fuel. Mix water and alky.. kinda can keep things where they are. But this is a fine line to walk.

 

[Razor]

Agree 100%. We ran only methanol in our carbuerated SG car for years, wouldn't dream of trying to tune with gas for NHRA purposes.

All the references above to methanol being just an additive is complete BS. Denatured alcohol is for cleaning paint brushes and water is for drinking. Stick to methanol for going fast.

Amen. :wink:

 

[bison]

On the latent heat subject meth is so good because of the low boiling point. Some liquids have a higher latent heat of vaporization but boil at much higher temps. Meth is combustible when mixed with oxygen so its a fuel source where water is not. The meth serves more than one purposes on most of our cars.

 

[vacuum 6]

IFor me, I use 50% ethanol in water. Two reason - it's much less flammable and it's very cheap. I buy E85 for $2/gallon and distilled water for $1/gallon. Mix the two, and the small amount of gasoline floats to the top (pour it off and into the lawn mower).

Methanol is about $3.00/gallon at the grove.

 

[Alky V6]

We've been working on a co-op purchasing deal for racings fuels of all types, including nitromethane, here in San Diego County area. If anyone is interested, get ahold of me and let me know.

 

[stanggod]

Wow, there are a lot of narrow minded people in here. Methanol works great, but other alcohols work too. Denatured is 95% ethanol and 5% methanol. The downside to denatured alky is that it's expensive. The cheapest easiest route for me is to buy e85 fuel and like mentioned before add a bit of h20 to the e85 which will seperate the two and you could run spray the ethanol in your alky kit. e85 is cheap and could be found for 99 cents sometimes. Isopropyl (rubbing alcohol) also works good and you could go to walmart and get a quart for 99 cents. It's all about what is available in your area.

 

[PhilM]

Like i said, we use pretty much everything... it depends on the customer... we're doing one now where the guy wants to use washer fluid (50/50 meth.h20). Ill have to post some pix of this thing ... lets just say its a sleeper

Phil

 

[Razor]

Wow, there are a lot of narrow minded people in here. Methanol works great, but other alcohols work too. Denatured is 95% ethanol and 5% methanol. The downside to denatured alky is that it's expensive. The cheapest easiest route for me is to buy e85 fuel and like mentioned before add a bit of h20 to the e85 which will seperate the two and you could run spray the ethanol in your alky kit. e85 is cheap and could be found for 99 cents sometimes. Isopropyl (rubbing alcohol) also works good and you could go to walmart and get a quart for 99 cents. It's all about what is available in your area.

Narrow minded??

Who said denatured didnt work?

I always say... put the numbers up and I'll listen .. until then.. I dont believe 95% thats up on the internet.. No bias..

The Iso is great on 14 second cars :wink:

 

[stanggod]

Narrow minded??

Who said denatured didnt work?

I always say... put the numbers up and I'll listen .. until then.. I dont believe 95% thats up on the internet.. No bias..

The Iso is great on 14 second cars :wink:

Well my car made 505whp and 701wtq (stock iron heads) on 70% wal-mart iso
This was at 16# of boost

I have run up to 22# of boost (AFR heads) which should be well over 600whp(haven't had time to go back to the dyno)

Trust me it's far from a 14 second car.

 

[scot w.]

Info On Tuning With A Meth Alky Kit ?

Hi, i'm going to be new at this alky stuff and I have a couple of questions if someone could please answer... my combo is listed below... 1). Who does good tuning for these alky kits?.... 2). I would like the most easy and worry free way to use meth and run 28lbs all the time ( total KILL mode )... 3).could someone write a list of settings Like guidlines as a base tune?... 4) so far with this combo iv'e run a 8:24 @ 90.263 mph in the 1/8th with a 60ft of 2.096 @ 22lbs boost with a half @ half mix of race gas @ 93.. In full street trim ( radial tires ) and a flareing trans.. I am wanting to get away from the race gas killing the o2 sensor and i'm thinking of going with the razor alky kit so any info would be MUCH appreciated as much as possible please, I need all the information as possible.... Please help guy's, Iv'e got alot of mustang guy's on my *ss wanting to race and I would LOVE to smoke all of them.... Scot w.