Since the addition of more power my car has picked up a nasty habit. If I floor it from a roll, providing that the tires hook, The rear end tends to sway from side to side. I'm afraid one of these days it's going to sway one way and keep going. It's doing this on standard street tires that are properly inflated. I currently have new body bushings,rear springs and shocks that will be going in as soon as I get the chance. Will this solve my problem or will I have to do the arms and bushings too? As far as I know they are the 149,000 mile stockers. Thanks.
My car does the Hula!!!!
- Thread starter Sleeper-6
- Start date
yeah, I saw your tire size after I posted. That is the first time I have heard that size tire doing it. About the swaybars, I was trying to say it is really bad with the front one off. I found out the hard way on my way to the track. I was doing some test runs right before I get there and I can't understand why the car is swaying so bad. So I was just a spectator that day.
Pronto
Believe nothing you hear and half of what you see.
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2002
Mine started that after the posi was installed. I have the stock sized tires and they just go up in smoke at 15 mph. I need to firm up the lca bushings and box them. Hopefully that will lessen the dance. I was warned that the swaying would happen by other TR owners. They were right!
Justin Terry
Member
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2002
Whe nmy car hooks on the street on street tires it does it bad. I also have 265/50's on the back. The only time it hooks though is from about 45 or higher anything lower and it just burns the tires thats why im gettin 275/50/15 nitto drag radials maybe that will help.
My car was doing the same thing last year at the track.Ordered the summit body bushing kit and got the Hotchkis kit.When I was removing the old body bushings,some were missing and the ones at the back were completly worn out.I had my friend push the car side to side when I was under it an the body was moving,not the frame.Put the Eibock springs and bilstien shocks and now the handling is like the car is on rails..I could not believe a car that has 68000 klm and never winter driven had the bushings worn out like that.It sat for 9 years in the garage,that must must of did it.
Mike
Mike
Hi Folks,
In my opinion - when both rear wheels are spinning, the car becomes fundamentally unstable - no matter how rigidly suspended/bushed the rear is. The reason is simple: the center of gravity lies forward of the center of thrust, and the spinning tires are relatively free to slide sideways. The solution is easy to conceptualize, but generally difficult to implement: increase rear traction so that the wheels stop spinning.
HTH,
MAP
In my opinion - when both rear wheels are spinning, the car becomes fundamentally unstable - no matter how rigidly suspended/bushed the rear is. The reason is simple: the center of gravity lies forward of the center of thrust, and the spinning tires are relatively free to slide sideways. The solution is easy to conceptualize, but generally difficult to implement: increase rear traction so that the wheels stop spinning.
HTH,
MAP
Did you guys ever get this figured out? My car is doing it. The back end sways side to side from a rolling punch. I can drive thru it, but it gets hairy now that the car has some power.
It always did it sporadically, but was so slow(high 13s) that it didn't really matter. Now with more power it's a huge problem.
P305 50 15 Euro TAs spin at the top of first, but if I punch it in second they usually hook and this is when the swaying starts if it's going to do it.
I think it's the shocks. My dad has a relatively stock GN with almost the same tires and his car never does it, so I'm going to try swapping rear shocks before I do anything else.
ANy other ideas?
Thanks!
It always did it sporadically, but was so slow(high 13s) that it didn't really matter. Now with more power it's a huge problem.
P305 50 15 Euro TAs spin at the top of first, but if I punch it in second they usually hook and this is when the swaying starts if it's going to do it.
I think it's the shocks. My dad has a relatively stock GN with almost the same tires and his car never does it, so I'm going to try swapping rear shocks before I do anything else.
ANy other ideas?
Thanks!
OK, I think I have an idea of what's going on. I was halfway thru swapping shocks between the GNs when I noticed that the very back body bushings on mine(the troublemaker) were not compressed at all, while the very back ones on my dad's were squished flat.
I got a wrench to tighten up the 4 back ones, starting with the second to the back on the drivers side and it instantly snapped off, with a bunch of rust falling in my face.
I went slow with the 2nd to the back one on the passenger side and it tightened down pretty well. I switched to the 2 very back ones and neither one would go any tighter. They had that "I'm gonna bust off feeling", so I pulled the bolt all the way out(wasn't rusted threads were fine), then I added some washers in case it was out of threads or hitting the floor of the trunk, put it back in and tried to tighten it and same thing. The back 2 will not compress the bushings at all. I can put an extension between the body and frame back there and move them apart pretty easily.
Now what? Do I have to cut an access hole in my virgin trunk to replace that captured nut with the broken off bolt? Why can't I compress those back 2 body bushings? Is there some kind of misfit between the body and the frame? This car had many signs of poor assembly when I bought it new(steering column in crooked, loose torque convertor bolts, etc).
I'm pretty certain this is why the car dances under power, because there are marks on the front of the rear wheelwell about the same height as the doorguard trim. Standing still and looking at the car, there appears to be no way the wheel could move that far forward and to the side. Sometimes it actually bends the trim strip so it's sticking out right there.
I need help guys! Anybody messed with these body bushings before?
Thanks!
I got a wrench to tighten up the 4 back ones, starting with the second to the back on the drivers side and it instantly snapped off, with a bunch of rust falling in my face.
I went slow with the 2nd to the back one on the passenger side and it tightened down pretty well. I switched to the 2 very back ones and neither one would go any tighter. They had that "I'm gonna bust off feeling", so I pulled the bolt all the way out(wasn't rusted threads were fine), then I added some washers in case it was out of threads or hitting the floor of the trunk, put it back in and tried to tighten it and same thing. The back 2 will not compress the bushings at all. I can put an extension between the body and frame back there and move them apart pretty easily.
Now what? Do I have to cut an access hole in my virgin trunk to replace that captured nut with the broken off bolt? Why can't I compress those back 2 body bushings? Is there some kind of misfit between the body and the frame? This car had many signs of poor assembly when I bought it new(steering column in crooked, loose torque convertor bolts, etc).
I'm pretty certain this is why the car dances under power, because there are marks on the front of the rear wheelwell about the same height as the doorguard trim. Standing still and looking at the car, there appears to be no way the wheel could move that far forward and to the side. Sometimes it actually bends the trim strip so it's sticking out right there.
I need help guys! Anybody messed with these body bushings before?
Thanks!
wistleofdeath
the noise in Illinois.
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2003
Mine would do the same thing. What was wrong with mine is that the passenger side bolt on the lower controll arm would always rattle loose.
Hi
I got a message from Pontiac Pete.My email cannot return email ,I have to get it fix.If you email me your #,I will call you back.
What my problem was that the body bushings were all worn or missing. After I changed them I was fine.I put the whole kit in from Summit.
Mike
I got a message from Pontiac Pete.My email cannot return email ,I have to get it fix.If you email me your #,I will call you back.
What my problem was that the body bushings were all worn or missing. After I changed them I was fine.I put the whole kit in from Summit.
Mike
REDS HOT AIR
Buick Tweaker
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
about every one I've ran into that had the wobble that gets worse with speed and worse the more power on it turned out to be a bad tire.
dont matter if new or old a bad belt or just a tire that was not designed to high stress on the sidewalls
dont matter if new or old a bad belt or just a tire that was not designed to high stress on the sidewalls
Thanks for the info.
I swapped tires with my dad's car, just to be sure, and it still did it, tho maybe not as bad. It's a sporadic thing. It never does it when I want it to.
I pulled out the very back 2 body bushings on my car and noticed that there was a steel sleeve insert in them that prevented me from clamping them down real hard. I ground it down about a half inch and I was able to clamp down the back 2 body bushings until they squished down to the size of the ones on my dad's trouble free GN.
Haven't tested since doing this since I still have to cut an access hole in the trunk to get out that busted off bolt on the other rear body bushing, since now I only have 3 bolts holding the back of the car on.
Called a few vendors and their consensus was control arm bushings, with one vote for an air bag, which I would buy if my dad's all stock GN did the same but it stays flat as a board. Plus for the tires to hit the front of the wheel well trim on both sides and bend it out(looks like someone grabbed it with a pliers) means that the tires would have to be moving sideways 2 inches in both directions. Something must be wrong.
I'll crawl under there tonite and put a wrench on all those bolts(thanks whistle-of-death) just in case
Do you guys think I need aftermarket lower control arms or just polyurethane in the stockers for a 12 sec street car?
ALso what about Kirban's body bushing kit and all those braces he sells? I noticed on the missing body bushings that he talks about, they have that large steel sleeve insert that my back 2 body bushings had so you can't really clamp the frame to the body very tight, but there are 4 of them so maybe 4 with moderate clamping pressure would help
I swapped tires with my dad's car, just to be sure, and it still did it, tho maybe not as bad. It's a sporadic thing. It never does it when I want it to.
I pulled out the very back 2 body bushings on my car and noticed that there was a steel sleeve insert in them that prevented me from clamping them down real hard. I ground it down about a half inch and I was able to clamp down the back 2 body bushings until they squished down to the size of the ones on my dad's trouble free GN.
Haven't tested since doing this since I still have to cut an access hole in the trunk to get out that busted off bolt on the other rear body bushing, since now I only have 3 bolts holding the back of the car on.
Called a few vendors and their consensus was control arm bushings, with one vote for an air bag, which I would buy if my dad's all stock GN did the same but it stays flat as a board. Plus for the tires to hit the front of the wheel well trim on both sides and bend it out(looks like someone grabbed it with a pliers) means that the tires would have to be moving sideways 2 inches in both directions. Something must be wrong.
I'll crawl under there tonite and put a wrench on all those bolts(thanks whistle-of-death) just in case
Do you guys think I need aftermarket lower control arms or just polyurethane in the stockers for a 12 sec street car?
ALso what about Kirban's body bushing kit and all those braces he sells? I noticed on the missing body bushings that he talks about, they have that large steel sleeve insert that my back 2 body bushings had so you can't really clamp the frame to the body very tight, but there are 4 of them so maybe 4 with moderate clamping pressure would help
wistleofdeath
the noise in Illinois.
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2003
why????
I just had to tighten that damn bolt up today again!!!!!
Last time I tightend it up i put thread locker on it ( the good stuff in the red bottle.) and it still works it's way loose. Brand new nut and bolt identical to the old one that came out of it so i know my threads aren't damaged. Also it is always the passenger side lower controll arm, the front bolt. I have hotchkiss lower controll arms is this a common thing or what??
I just had to tighten that damn bolt up today again!!!!!
Last time I tightend it up i put thread locker on it ( the good stuff in the red bottle.) and it still works it's way loose. Brand new nut and bolt identical to the old one that came out of it so i know my threads aren't damaged. Also it is always the passenger side lower controll arm, the front bolt. I have hotchkiss lower controll arms is this a common thing or what??Can you double nut it?? I do that on my GTOs as I had one completed fall off once. Fortunately it was the lower back bolt.
I think that's an 18mm nut isn't it? Kinda weird size. I crawled under there to see if mine were tight. Man were they tight. I didn't have an 18mm in 1/2" drive and I was afraid of busting my 3/8" so I pounded on an 11\16, 1/2" drive but I almost didn't get it off.
I tried to tighten them a little to maybe pinch the bracket to the bushing a little as there was a gap between the sides of the bushing and the brackets. Forget about it. Covered with rust. Looks like they could be a real battle just to get off.
How do you like the arms? Did you do the uppers too?
Squeezing those back two body bushings down seems to have helped my rolling problem, but I won't say it's fixed for a while. Ordered Kirban's kit for the middle bushings just to be sure.
I think that's an 18mm nut isn't it? Kinda weird size. I crawled under there to see if mine were tight. Man were they tight. I didn't have an 18mm in 1/2" drive and I was afraid of busting my 3/8" so I pounded on an 11\16, 1/2" drive but I almost didn't get it off.
I tried to tighten them a little to maybe pinch the bracket to the bushing a little as there was a gap between the sides of the bushing and the brackets. Forget about it. Covered with rust. Looks like they could be a real battle just to get off.
How do you like the arms? Did you do the uppers too?
Squeezing those back two body bushings down seems to have helped my rolling problem, but I won't say it's fixed for a while. Ordered Kirban's kit for the middle bushings just to be sure.
wistleofdeath
the noise in Illinois.
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2003
As far as the arms are conserned I don't have anything to compare them to they where on the car when i bought it. Ill try doing a double nut today after class and see if that helps catch you all latter
Andy
Andy
Greetings Turbogto,
The car should be stable with the tires hooking. With the G-body, there will always be some directional instability as the car goes over bumps, but nothing that should even remotely hint of danger of losing control, as long as the car is being driven nominally in a straight line.
The problems you mention indicate almost certainly, a significant departure from the car's stock, normal behavior, even accounting for the car's 12-sec potential. You therefore need to determine all ways in which the car's current condition differs from new, and at the very top of this list, as you've already started to find, are all the bushings: both body/frame, and suspension. The body/frame bushings are notorious for the bolts seizing and thus snapping after a decade or more of exposure to the elements. (Btw, yes, you'll have to cut the trunk floor to access the top of that bolt anchor. After that, you can make a metal lid that you can screw into the existing trunk floor surrounding the hole to hide the evidence. Once you replace the floor carpet, no one will be any the wiser.)
While many would recommend using bushings that are stiffer than stock, I'd argue that replacing them with NOS bushings will eliminate somewhere between 99% and 100% of the trouble you're experiencing. Incidentally, when the bushing bolts snap off, the frame itself is usually significantly rusted, and may therefore be compromised past the point of serviceable integrity. Inspect carefully before throwing good money after bad!
HTH,
MAP
The car should be stable with the tires hooking. With the G-body, there will always be some directional instability as the car goes over bumps, but nothing that should even remotely hint of danger of losing control, as long as the car is being driven nominally in a straight line.
The problems you mention indicate almost certainly, a significant departure from the car's stock, normal behavior, even accounting for the car's 12-sec potential. You therefore need to determine all ways in which the car's current condition differs from new, and at the very top of this list, as you've already started to find, are all the bushings: both body/frame, and suspension. The body/frame bushings are notorious for the bolts seizing and thus snapping after a decade or more of exposure to the elements. (Btw, yes, you'll have to cut the trunk floor to access the top of that bolt anchor. After that, you can make a metal lid that you can screw into the existing trunk floor surrounding the hole to hide the evidence. Once you replace the floor carpet, no one will be any the wiser.)
While many would recommend using bushings that are stiffer than stock, I'd argue that replacing them with NOS bushings will eliminate somewhere between 99% and 100% of the trouble you're experiencing. Incidentally, when the bushing bolts snap off, the frame itself is usually significantly rusted, and may therefore be compromised past the point of serviceable integrity. Inspect carefully before throwing good money after bad!
HTH,
MAP
Hi Map
Yeah, I've learned a lot about GM body bushings in the last week or so. The car is no Arizona car, but it's very low rust for CHicago. Best I'm gonna find.
Clamping down the 2 back body bushings seems to have helped, but if any little imperfection in the road disturbs the rear end while it's under power, it starts this chain reaction of rocking that gets worse and worse, then eventually goes away if I stay in it long enough.
I'm adding Kirban's kit and I'll start cutting up the trunk over the weekend to get after that rusted out captured nut.
What do you think about Poly bushings in the stock control arms, or an upgrade to HRParts arms? I heard they relocate the lower arms below the rearend bracket and there's some welding involved and adjustable uppers may be needed to get the pinion angle back? Those bolts will be a battle.
Air bag in the right side seems to be popular too.
Thanks for input
Yeah, I've learned a lot about GM body bushings in the last week or so. The car is no Arizona car, but it's very low rust for CHicago. Best I'm gonna find.
Clamping down the 2 back body bushings seems to have helped, but if any little imperfection in the road disturbs the rear end while it's under power, it starts this chain reaction of rocking that gets worse and worse, then eventually goes away if I stay in it long enough.
I'm adding Kirban's kit and I'll start cutting up the trunk over the weekend to get after that rusted out captured nut.
What do you think about Poly bushings in the stock control arms, or an upgrade to HRParts arms? I heard they relocate the lower arms below the rearend bracket and there's some welding involved and adjustable uppers may be needed to get the pinion angle back? Those bolts will be a battle.
Air bag in the right side seems to be popular too.
Thanks for input
I can't say for sure what helped my situation 'cause I did a lot all at once, but my car wouldn't hook to save it's life if I smashed the gas at anything under 15-20 mph. I then boxed the stock lower controll arms (a replacement set) put in jegs adj. tubular uppers, replaced all the bushings and changed my shocks and now it feels as if it could pull the front (I know it can't, just feels good). I think getting the lower arms boxed and getting the propper pinion angle probably helped the most. I just don't know . Sometimes I wish it would still brake 'em loose easy. It makes the layman think your car's got balls.
That's all I got ta say 'bout that.
Adam
. Sometimes I wish it would still brake 'em loose easy. It makes the layman think your car's got balls.That's all I got ta say 'bout that.
Adam
