Need help tuning my 82

[blacknight80]

I got my car put together and got rid of all my codes but it still seems to run rough. My timing is at 12 degrees, a little low. But it feels like a miss. I checked my wires and they are all right. I checked my #1 position and it is at tdc. Does 1 have to be on btdc or does it matter on these electronic spark systems? I need to fix my power wire to the dizzy as well it is getting a really erratic voltage. I ran a wire directly from the battery and that didn't seem to solve anything.

I checked my tps voltages and I get .4 at idle and 5 volts at wot.

Choke is wide open when warm.

Lean stop was calibrated when I rebuilt the carb. I left rich stop alone.the kit I got from cliffs performance had two different idle screws in it. One matched the stock one I pulled out and the other was short. Should they be the same size? I have them both turned out 3.5 turns.

It hesitates fairly badly when I punch it. Secondaries seem to be opening and I loosened the tension on the air valves. Good idea?

Any help tuning this ol girl is appreciated.

 

[b4black]

How old/new is the O2 sensor?

 

[WarWagon]

Love Q-jets, I personally tighten the air door for the secondaries on boosted v6 or an NA v6/v8. A moment of delayed response for me is welcomed over a hesitation or bog.

 

[blacknight80]

O2 is brand new. Maybe a tank of fuel burnt past it. Lots of idle though, would that foul it? I have a spare I could try to swap it.

Should I tighten up my secondary flap?

Any thoughts on the idle screws, should I put the old ones back in or is that normal to have two different sized screws in a rebuild kit. I'm wondering if the rough idle has something to do with it. When I cover the air horn the car dies so I think I can rule out a vacuum leak.

It seems to run rich. When I accelerate from lights (at a regular pace lol) it gets temperamental and at it's worse I have to feather the throttle to get it going and once I'm rollin it is pretty good.

I don't have a dwell meter and they seem to be as rare as hens teeth in this day and age so in the mean time I'm going to check the map and baro. Anything else I should check out?

I know the est system works because when warm and idling my oil pressure must be a little low and I get some nasty lifter noise under the "easy" to access passenger side valve cover. I was hoping it was the exhaust manifold but I pulled it and it is a heavy 80' cast unit.

I've got ZERO experience with these CCC's so bare with me. And unfortunately there isn't a lot of old school mechanics that know anything about them up here in Canada. Every time I ask for parts/advice I keep being told that I have the wrong carb on my car because ccc were only on 87-88 mid size cars. Very frustrating. Just had it in for a safety and the mechanic told me my turbo wasn't hooked up, I argued with him for about ten minutes and eventually gave up. Guy figured the boost was supposed to be fed into the EGR Port on the plenum. Haha. I digress.

Thanks again

 

[blacknight80]

I replaced the idle air screws back to the stockers and opened them to 4 turns out, lowered the idle speed and it smoothed out the idle. Motor still jumps a bit but much better than before.

 

[b4black]

My experience has been not to mess with those screws on an electronic carb. They need to be close and then the ECM makes the fine adjustment. There is a set number of turns out to make and then leave it alone. (sorry, it's been a long time and I don't remember the number - maybe 4?)

The factory plugged those holes for a reason, but back in the '80's, mechanics unfamiliar with electronic carbs took a hacksaw to the base and cut the plugs out.

 

[blacknight80]

I have seen anywhere between 3.5 and 4 on the web. I made 1/8 turn adjustments and giving lots of time between adjustment to allow the ECM to adjust. They were 3.5 and 4 turns out when I took it apart but it ran like crap then so I didn't worry about set them back to original adjustment. Someone already had it apart. It doesn't bog or backfire when I crack the throttle open like it used to. If anyone has any tips feel free to throw em in.

 

[charlief1]

The factory plugged those holes for a reason, but back in the '80's, mechanics unfamiliar with electronic carbs took a hacksaw to the base and cut the plugs out.

Actually Rich, it's in the factory manual that you are supposed to be able to adjust the carb if needed. It was specifically for GM trained techs though. Most people including techs didn't have a clue about how to adjust the carbs, much less do a proper overhaul. 3.5 to 4.25 turns out is usually the area that works best, but I have seen some that needed a different adjustment. Idle is the only time that the CCC system only controls the idle speed, but not the mixture.

Have you got a scan tool so you can see what the O2 counts are? The O2 sensor can give you some idea of how the carb is doing and in most cases you want to try for lean best. Hook a tach up so you can see the RPMs and adjust each side until you get the highest RPM, then turn 1/8 turn out for best idle.

 

[blacknight80]

I don't have a scan tool. My dad dropped in for an overnight visit and I had him give me a hand, he's an ol hot rodder from way back that always believed the q jet was the best carb made. He got it tuned in real nice. I've watched him do it a hundred times but I guess I never learned.

Now that I can drive it I have been trying to get some performance out of it but I think the ECM is killing me. I have nice drivability but when I put my foot into it pulls to a certain point (5psi) and it goes flat and it takes a while to get there. It doesn't die but it doesn't continue to pull. It would also feel like the ignition was being killed for a micro second and then turned back on when I had it at wot. I disconnected the dizzy 4pin and it runs a little harder but still not great. It also throws a lot of black smoke when it eventually gets to 5psi.

We thought that the on and off feeling was coming from fuel starvation so we bent the float a little more. The bowl was about 1/3 full when we pulled the air horn so we bent it up to fill just over half the bowl.

I can't hear any pinging but that doesn't mean that the sensor isn't hearing it I suppose.

The drivers side engine mount is shot as well. Would this cause false knock?

What would cause this flat feeling and all the smoke?

 

[b4black]

Two things I can think off. You could have a lot of knock and the flat spot is the timing being pulled. You'll need a scan tool or a knock gauge. I run a Casper's knock gauge in my '83. If I get too much knock, it falls on it's face. Check and see if the downpipe is hitting the frame (look from below, near the starter). I like to use a polyurethane motor mount from HR Parts N Stuff. It really holds the engine in place.

http://www.casperselectronics.com/store2/product_info.php?cPath=61_62_5_6_10&products_id=625
http://www.hrpartsandstuff.com/products/motormounts/vehiclechoice.htm


Or the fuel filter in the carb inlet is the problem. It has a check valve and for me, it staved the carb. But this was while running the quarter mile about 10 sec in the run. I spliced an in-line filter into the fuel line.

 

[blacknight80]

I had a look and the downpipe clears the frame when It's sitting off. But the engine mount is ruined and you can hear the exhaust hitting something when it torques up.

The fuel filter I put in doesn't have a check ball.

I am most definitely not running 10 s haha. 30s if I'm lucky the way it is running now.

I'm running 91 octane in it and I'm hardly boosting. It was falling on its face when I had the waste gate set at near zero psi.

Any idea on the black smoke I'm spewing. Looked like I had an old 12 valve cummins in er haha. Does it go to full rich once it senses excessive knock?

 

[b4black]

I'm not runing 10's. That's 10 seconds into a 14 sec run. Point bieng it takes a fiar amount of WOT to dran the fuel bowl.

If it's false knock due to a pipe hitting the frame, then boost/octane don't matter. If it hears the false knock, it retards the timing. One way to confirm the knock is false is to turn the boost all the way down and if it still does it, it's flase knock.


Monden engines will reduce boost and richen the fuel mixture, but on these engines, only tiiming is pulled in response to knock. Could the black smoke be related to the secondaries opening up? Are the secodnary rods seated in the jets properly?

 

[blacknight80]

I ordered engine mounts and should have them installed by the weekend. I'm thinking it's false knock because I turned my boost right down and it acts the same.

The rods seemed to drop in properly when I put it back together. The timing being pulled would cause the spark at the wrong time and Leave a pile of un burnt fuel to be dumped out the back.....right?

 

[WarWagon]

Back when I was still drawthru the only time black smoke was coming out of the tailpipe was when it was still running a 7 pin HEI module and the engine was detonating hard and about ready to blow the head gaskets. Your mention of (12 valve cummins) is exactly what I was experiencing exploding fuel mixture and not burning/deflagration mixture.

 

[blacknight80]

I haven't had time to change the engine mounts yet but I had to move it today and when I rev it up at idle it is spewing smoke. I'm going to check my float level. I think we set it a little high when tuning it last weekend. Anyone know what the float level should measure? I can't find the measurement anywhere in my shop manual or carb books.

 

[blacknight80]

I replaced the motor mount and man what a difference. The motor actually sits still. I also bent the float a bit and it reduced the soot flying out of my tail pipe. I'm going to adjust it a bit more and see what happens.

Now to another problem. This snowball is getting smaller at least. When cruising in town 15-40 mph with no boost it surges quiet a bit and when I put my foot into it, it back fires and bogs and doesn't do much. But when I'm on the highway at 55 mph and put my foot into and once it boosts (only 3psi) up it really moves nice and smooth without any surging. Could it be my torque converter locking and unlocking? It feels like a fuel or ignition issue but from earlier fiddling I am not sure any more haha. Any ideas?

I should mention that it is dead at the bottom end. Can't get it to do a break stand. So sad I need to see some smoke hahaha.........from my tires not my tail pipe

 

[b4black]

The torque converter clutch gets its power through a line connected to the brake pedal (push the brake, power is interrupted, so it disengages). It's switched on/off by the ECM through the ground wire. That ground wire has a pin in the ALDL connector (brown wire maybe?). If you ground this wire, you can force the TCC to lock up. And can connect a light to the wire and see when the TCC is engaged or not.

I wired up a light and switch so I can manually lock the TCC when racing. If the TPS isn't set right, the TCC will lock and unlock excessively.

On a 350C, you can unplug the TCC and not hurt anything. Try unplugging it and see if anything changes.

 

[blacknight80]

I finally had time to fiddle with the carb some more and I think I sorted out my rich condition. When you install the float the fulcrum pin doesn't sit tight on the drivers side. This allows the float to twist a bit and fills the bowl right full of fuel. I set the float a little leaner to compensate for the sloppy pin. I thought after it is all put back together it would hold it tight but it didn't so I'm hoping this fixes it. It got late last night.....I mucked up installing the tps and I had about 4 codes pop up....it's back together and ready for a test drive after work. I also noticed when in limp mode the low speed surging stopped.

 

[blacknight80]

Took the car for a 160 mile drive today and found out that my surging issue is to do with the timing control. I un hooked the dizzy and it stopped completely.

Still over fuels like a sucker.

I was only able to get an audible knock once when i romped on it. I'm at a loss to what the heck is wrong with it.

Update

After a decent cruise night( no power at wot but drove nice enough to cruise main) I parked the car and this morning I fired it up and it hardly runs. It has a horrible miss and feels like it is running on 5 cylinders. Spark is fine.

The black smoke minimizes as I turn the boost up. Any ideas why it would?

Seems like 1 step forward and 2 back. Getting pretty discouraged.

The carb is still pissing me off and no matter what I do I can't get this pig to run right.

I am thinking of swapping over to the old style turbo control and carb. Any thoughts on retroing? What do I need out of a donor car to do this? Is there any way to use the lock up converter once the ccc is removed?

I have a lifter that gets noisy once the car warms up and it idles to long as well. Cause for it to run poorly?

Thanks guys

 

[b4black]

If the surging stopped after unhooking the distributor from the ECM, it seems then the surging could be related to knock and the surging might be the timing being pulled.

Do you have a scan tool? I would get a scan tool off ebay. They are cheap and you may find you have a bad sensor somewhere. I chased a problem for a long time. First time I tried a scan tool, I found the MAP sensor wasn't reading. The hose going to it was dry-rotted underneath where it passed by the turbo. (The actual sensor was OK, so no check engine light.)

Plus you can watch the knock retard with the scan tool.

Searching Ebay for "OTC Monitor". Any model with a number after it will work. The first Monitor was 1981. Monitor II was 1982. Monitor 2000 uses cartridges and does cars up through the 90's.