Need help with the complete setup turbo/intercooler/injectors/MAF

Olli.D

Member
It would be very great to receive help from you for my very stock 87 chrome Regal, low miles.

I just visited the GS Nationals at Bowling Green (sorry for rain out saturday) and like to get some more power out of the car.
I am used to work on cars, but the turbo Buick stuff for me is brand new! Some of you are 30 years on already. I'am an old little baby! :)

In Germany i get no information and no parts (only 3 turbo Buicks known here). Some friends from Missouri would help with shipping, what i not get from the known sellers or ebay.

The car has already:
- scanmaster 2.1
- walbro fuel pump 255LPH
- fuel press regulator and gauge
- pypes exhaust 2x2,5"
rest is stock!

In the garage:
- downpipe 3" and test pipe
- external wastegate
- 50lbs (high impedance) injectors
- hotwire for pump
- heated o2 sensor
- some parts like 160 degrees thermostate with va connector, better oil pressure regulator, thick header gaskets

Planned to buy:
- Precision 5858 ball bearing
- Precision stock location intercooler or RJC front mount
- 3,5 MAF and translator
- 3" cold air inlet with big K+N Filter
- whiteband o2 sensor, to read inside and adjust by translator if necsessary
- Chip (would love just to fill the form of turbotweaks)
- diff gauges, knock, water temp, oil press, nice girls,


I will get a 200-R4 trans rebuild, stronger, converter with needed stall, soon.

Later:
- rebuild a 2nd used engine, what i look for now...
it will get ported stock heads and may be roller cam

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I have no sec 1/4 mile and no mp/h, let us test, what comes out!
We have fuel 93,5 oct (Europe 98)
I have no dyno easy to go to, nobody is used to this engine.
The car should be robust and isb driven like a every day car. Quite fast, but no race car.
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Questions:

- are the 50 lbs injectors to small?
- Spool time
not sure about the intercooler! May be, the BIG RJC is better for more boost (colder / less detonation)
but bigger volume, needs longer to build pressure than the Precision SLIC. For that, would prefer the Precision SLIC.
The bigger (compared to stock, but modern) 5858 needs longer to spool, ball bearing little quicker, is that right? Is the 5858 to big for that little setup?
- what stall would it need?
- 3,5" MAF and translator, heated narrowband o2 sensor plus wideband sensor only for read, is that the way?

Input would be super!

Regards, Olli
 
Man you look like you are going in the right direction , You can look in my sig and see my upgrades , I'm hoping to be in the mid to high 11's and that's pretty fast on the streets . Good luck Keith
 
Precision 5858 ball bearing
- Precision stock location intercooler or RJC front mount
I personally would dutt neck the intercooler buy an alkycontrol kit single nozzle m15 with your 50lb injectors and you will be fine
 
I would start by getting the hot wire kit in the car first. You are playing with fire if the fuel pump is not getting enough voltage to run it properly.

Get the thermostat in there that will help too.

Next would be the down pipe. That is free horsepower that you will feel.

Once you have done that, you really need to get an Alky Injection kit for the car. That will allow you to build on the motor with bigger turbo and it will handle it just fine.

When you do the alky kit you will need to reprogram the chip anyways, so you can put on the 50 pph injectors at the same time and you are good to go.You should not need to do an injector driver upgrade on 50 pph injectors they are not typically a high impedance injector.

You don't need to go to the external gate for a performance gain at this time.

Do that stuff first and then you can work on upgrades. If you have an RJC intercooler in the car, run with it they are good units and you don't need to upgrade the intercooler if you get another turbo.

Turbo upgrades these days are not a compromise in response time vs higher flow. You can have the best of both worlds. Your converter will lay a big part in that too.

Once you go to a bigger turbo then you can think about the larger MAF pipe, MAF sensor and so on. Or you can run the SD2 chip and not use a MAF at all. Something to think about.

By this point you will be ready to kill a stock trans so you may need to think about that too.

Let us know what you need for parts, I can hook you up with what you need.
 
I was thinking alky too, how is the availability of 100% Methanol in Germany? I agree with Reggie, get that hotwire in the car so that pump has good voltage, then the injectors, downpipe, and chip. if your adding these mods on a stock chip, then your going to be setting off the SES light real quick. keep it simple to start, don't go blowing anything up. Parts are tough to come by over here, in Germany they must really be scarce or a ton of shipping cost. Besides valve springs, I wouldn't open that motor up or even think about those head gaskets, as long as the stocker's are good, leave em be, good luck with it and read up here or asked questions about your projects.
 
Great for so mouch reactions, thank you for your help!

Ohh, that means: no alky, no much boost?!
And: no alky, no need for a bigger turbo!

I checked for the methanol, is not easy to buy here and not cheap.
4$/ltr or 15$/gal when buy 10gal.
Bioethanol is just 1$/ltr.
When i read about Alky inj here, they speak about destlilled water mixed with "some" methanol.
If you have a dayly street car, how many Methanol 100% do you need / 100miles?
Ofcourse, depends on your way to drive, but easy drive and sometime boost...
And: we have Autobahn ;-)


@ Reggie West Ja, i would prefer to go with SD2 Chip, power logger, whideband all time and no MAF.
But.... i have no dyno and must trust the settings.
Is it that easy? With the chip i get the spark timing table as a basic setting with the ability to adjust.All basic settings are done, i look at lambda and adjust fuel.
After that is done, fine tune. Weather changes, tune again :)


My other car, no turbo, runs that way, free programmable by laptop. So i'am quite used to this kind of adjustments.


@ zapp240
Yes, shipping cost and tax and customs and looong time to get the parts... like to be careful

I didn't mean the head gaskets, but the thick header gaskets. The surface of header/head is not really tight.
So just bought aftermarket thick gaskets (graphite) last week. Nit tight, no pressure, no boost :)
I would let the engine together!
Buy another engine for restauration and change engines later.




I would do it as a complete set! So i would like to make a complete list of parts i should order.
With alky, Turbo, Intercooler...

- Would you recommend the stock located Precision, or the big RJC ? Just ask because of spool time / volume of RJC.
- Precision 5858 ball bearing a good choice?
- And Razor Alky :)
 
I always thought Germany had superior fuel compared to the US. You mentioned Bioethanol. Please elaborate. Maybe you don't need alky.
 
I always thought Germany had superior fuel compared to the US. You mentioned Bioethanol. Please elaborate. Maybe you don't need alky.
I thought that too. But calculation is different. You have (RON + MON)/2=AKI (Anti-Knock Index). We use the RON (Reaserch Octane Number).
MON=Motor Octane Number. Don't know, what it is in detail, but we have 93,5 AKI as good stuff, 96 AKI (102 RON) as premium, but expensive...

With the Bioethanol, Germany stopped E85 last year. You may buy it in single 1l bottles but not in gas stations.
I had a further look: 1ltr Bioethanol is 1,60$, 1gal for 6$
 
From what I've read bioethanol is E10 or 10% ethanol in gasoline like we have here in the US for most premium fuels.

Not suitable for use in any alky. kit.

Okay for the gas tank if the octane rating is high enough.
 
From what I've read bioethanol is E10 or 10% ethanol in gasoline like we have here in the US for most premium fuels.

Not suitable for use in any alky. kit.

Okay for the gas tank if the octane rating is high enough.

The E10 is the standard here 91 AKI 1,5$/ltr, pure for few cent more 91 AKI, and 93,5 AKI also pure for 1,65$ (that is my choice).
The pure Bioethanol E100 for 1,60$/ltr, but not on gas station.
E85 is out now.
 
@ Reggie West Ja, i would prefer to go with SD2 Chip, power logger, whideband all time and no MAF.
But.... i have no dyno and must trust the settings.
Is it that easy? With the chip i get the spark timing table as a basic setting with the ability to adjust.All basic settings are done, i look at lambda and adjust fuel.
After that is done, fine tune. Weather changes, tune again :)


Yes the chips are that easy. As long as you fill out the parameters on your car correctly on Eric's website you will be fine. The chips can be adjusted to compensate for weather changes. The SD2 gives you the option of tuning your own fuel and timing maps as well on a laptop using the wideband O2. You have the right idea with the tuning end of it you will be fine.

Fuel will be a concern for you. It seems that the 96 AKI would be a little better but you will still need the alky if you are going to make more power. Anything over 450 to 500 hp and it is essential. You have to run straight Methanol in order to keep the motor from detonating. Water will not work and you will hurt the motor. The other option is race gas and C16 is $16 a gallon here I dont know what it would cost you there if you could get it. You can probably run the 96 you have on the stock turbo and a proper chip and be just fine. Bigger turbo will equal an alky injection system. Dont go cheap, buy the Alkycontrol system, there are MAJOR differences between them and other units. There is also the money concern for this too. 5 gallons of methanol will last you about 2 to 3 months based on the weight of your right foot.
 
You can easily run pure ethanol, which I assume E100 is, in most alky. kits.

Tanks hold anywhere from 1/2 gallon to a gallon for alky.

For me in a daily driver I get about two weeks out of a 1/2 gallon tank.

Ethanol is far less corrosive too so you shouldn't need to replace the pump every couple of years. :)
 
I have a 5857 BB
love it supper street able I'll say no not to big at all
I have a Street Edge 2800 ,spec. By Lonnie at Extreme Automatics .there are several opinions for converts
I run a 6.1 TT worked right out of the box
I spray ALKY ,but at RMI 102 I would guess you could run 20 -24 lb boost
Eric at TT would have a better idea
How expensive is your is 96AKI?
 
You can easily run pure ethanol, which I assume E100 is, in most alky. kits.

Tanks hold anywhere from 1/2 gallon to a gallon for alky.

For me in a daily driver I get about two weeks out of a 1/2 gallon tank.

Ethanol is far less corrosive too so you shouldn't need to replace the pump every couple of years. :)

That is perfect, ethanol is just half the price. Checked with a company here, can get methanol and ethanol, but bio-ethanol.
And like you and Reggie West say, not tooo mouch what you need. (based on the weight of your right foot, haha... )


@hensleyt

Shell V-Power 94AKI and Aral Ultimate 102 may be 96AKI 1,6$/ltr or 6$/gal

You gave me super input!!

My to buy list :

- Razor Alky
- Precision 5858 bb (or stock look T58?)
- Precision stock location intercooler or RJC front mount not clear by now...
- cold air
- SD2 Chip
- wideband sensor, gauge with output for chip and
- boost controller, all in 1 gauge with widebad, Innovate SCG1

There is a MAP sensor in the Innovate kit, may i use that for the chip too? This Innovate kit available in germany :happy:
 
Why SD chip?
I love the simplicity of TT 6.1 ,14.7 cruise 10.9 WFO
I Do run a 15 row SLIC
And was running 42lb inj with Best ET 11.8 ,duty cycle was high 80%
With 50lb inj and a 5858 on 102 fuel (I being no expert)think as a street car you wont need any more than a stock cooler and a big neck
I run 22lb boost on the street spraying ALKY and it will go. I think you can do that with just 102 fuel and no ALKY .
I would always run the best fuel you can even if you get a ALKY kit.
I don't think I would push a stock block any harder than that .Lot of people have,I broke mine and getting parts in Hawaii was hard enough
 
you will be doing all the tuning yourself.a simple 5.7 chip and axis or translator setup works great and will give you plenty of features to play with.i went over 135mph in the 1/4 at 3900lbs on a simple tt5.7 chip translator 3.5maf setup.
 
........- Spool time
not sure about the intercooler! May be, the BIG RJC is better for more boost (colder / less detonation)
but bigger volume, needs longer to build pressure than the Precision SLIC. For that, would prefer the Precision SLIC.

The bigger (compared to stock, but modern) 5858 needs longer to spool, ball bearing little quicker, is that right?
Regards, Olli

Not sure where you received the info that "bigger volume needs longer to builds pressure"?

Common sense says boost is restriction, so spooling is faster with less restriction.

I have installed a couple dozen RJC FM IC's replacing SLIC units including a few Precision SL units, and in all cases spooling was better, inlet air temp was better, and same HP level with lower boost.

If the combination it properly matched, a BB turbo is not necessarily better on the street than an old-school turbo. What is critical with a BB turbo or not, that the torque converter is matched to the turbo as well as the other items in the build.

Another important consideration in the build is how it the car going to be used? A combination built for drag racing in competition is different than a killer street car use.

I have built a few hundred GN's for customers over 30 years from stock to 7 sec. turbo Buicks, and the starting point is a discussions of their goals, use and budget.

I you do not know where you a going, you will probably never get there! :)
 
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