New Engine - too hot?

[turbojimmy]

Was out cruising today. 50 miles each way, mostly highway. This morning, when it was 74 out, it hung out around 170-180 on the highway. Creeped up to 190-200 in traffic.

On the way home, it was 90 degrees out, and it hung out around 185-195 on the highway and 200-210 in traffic. Not running the A/C.

I have a 3-row high efficiency radiator from Nick. The old engine never got above 170 with that radiator, but I never had it in hot weather. And it had RMI-25 in it. I have a 160 degree stat and 50/50 antifreeze and water.

The only things that are changed since last time out are:
- new engine
- 8 x 11 trans cooler in front of the radiator
- higher outside temps of 80-90 degrees (never had it in weather above about 60 degrees)

Is it running too hot? Is it because it's new?

TIA,
Jim

 

[Turbo__Tim]

I believe that that Steve Wood has said that the factory temps were about 210*, so you are not hurting anything.

Advanced timing could cause a lean condition, and high temps as a result, but I can't see how that could happen with your set-up.

Are you experiencing abnormally high gas mileage? That would tell you if you weere running lean.....

At what temp. is the fan comming on?

 

[turbosam6]

Check the fan operation, I've heard of fans running backwards, not sure how. I have an aluminum radiator from CAS, and I can keep any temp I want anytime, so you should be able to run much cooler. Good luck.

 

[turbojimmy]

Thanks for the replies.

I had a 98 octane Extender chip in it, but had the timing turned back to a 93 octane setting. Gas mileage is normal. Fan is coming on a 160 degrees. I had the boost turned way down, but it's creeping higher than I'd like to see it, too. I don't want to screw this new engine up so last night I pulled the Extender and put a really mild street chip in it. Low boost, low timng. Once it's broken in, I'll start tuning again.

It should be running a lot cooler. I'll wait 'til it's broken in before I get worried about it. Also, if it gets above 210 I'll have to investigate. But, last night after the outside temps cooled off a bit it was back down to 170-180 at idle and around town.

Jim

 

[turbojimmy]

Originally posted by ILBCNU6
How much was the engine bored? This can cause an overheating problem. I just installed the "Ramcharger" dual fans and designed them to work off the factory sensors and they both run low / high speed. It is very easy to do this conversion and my way no new holes are needed to mount the dual fans. They look stock and Buick should have installed them originally! Let us know! Gene

It's bored .040 over. The guy that built it said it shouldn't matter (versus the .030 we were shootin' for - couldn't find .030 forged pistons in a reasonable amount of time). Maybe I'll look at the dual fans. My concern is that at highway speeds, the fans shouldn't matter and it's still getting warm.

With the dual fans, is there a place to hang my alky bottle?

Thanks for the reply,
Jim

 

[TurboJim]

Might consider reloacting the trans cooler. You're blocking a good 1/4 of the rad core. Especially if its a stacked plate cooler like a B&M. This cooler was probably put on after yer last bout w/Pt right? So it wouldnt be consistant with last summer right?

With a stock location IC thats kinda hot IMHO, I see those temps but am running a FM. Since putting on the ramchargers dual fan deal I dont see the temp get much over 170. (Fan on at 169)

 

[1of1547]

My car basically has the same setup and problem. I was told to buy the Caspers fan harness and switch. It plugs into the A/C wires. This way you can run the fans manually or let the computer do its thing. You also don't have to cut any wires. When you crusing around turn the fans on high. I also bought the dual fans from Ramchargers as extra insurance.

 

[turbojimmy]

Jim: Yeah, it's a B&M stacked plate cooler. I didn't have it last summer, but I didn't have Nick's radiator either, so I don't have a good comparison either way.

If I were to re-locate the cooler, where could I put it?

1of1547: Did the dual fans make a big difference? You have a trans cooler in front of the radiator?

Thanks,
Jim

 

[turbosam6]

IMO, you shouldn't need the dual fans, they are nice, but there are a lot of guys with front mounts and stock radiators that can get by, so you should be cool. A good place to put the trans cooler is between the front airdams, basically bridge the gap between the bumper and the radiator. Thats what I did, and have seen a lot of guys do that. Might be worth checking to make sure theres no air in the cooling system. Good luck!

 

[turbojimmy]

Originally posted by turbosam6
IMO, you shouldn't need the dual fans, they are nice, but there are a lot of guys with front mounts and stock radiators that can get by, so you should be cool. A good place to put the trans cooler is between the front airdams, basically bridge the gap between the bumper and the radiator. Thats what I did, and have seen a lot of guys do that. Might be worth checking to make sure theres no air in the cooling system. Good luck!

Thanks for the info....

So between the front air dams - you mean horizontal?

I'm going to pull it out temporarily and see what that does to the temps. Can't hurt.

Jim

 

[1of1547]

I haven't installed the fans yet. First I have to get the motor together. I am putting the fans on for extra insurance.

 

[turbojimmy]

Originally posted by ILBCNU6
Others (experienced engine builders) have commented not to overbore more then .030 due to thin cylinder walls, new rings can cause extra heating of the cylinders, move the trans cooler 1st, then you might try a "Flow-Cooler" water pump that flow more coolant. I wanted to run custom pistons of +.010 instead of the + .020 in my engine because of planning to run high boost pressures. No offense to your overbore just some comments. Good Luck. Gene

No offense taken...

It's actually starting to run a little cooler now that I have a few miles on it. Turns out I'm missing the side baffles, too. Didn't know I was supposed to have any. I think I'll put some RMI in, too. It ran really cool with it before the rebuild.

I specifically asked the builder about running hot with a .040 overbore and he said it would be okay. He's been doing it almost as long as I've been alive, and I'm no spring chicken Regardless, I think if I make a couple of changes here and there I can get it to run a bit cooler. It doesn't need much.

Thanks for the tips.....

Jim

 

[turbojimmy]

UPDATE

Okay....

Took the trans cooler out. Tooled around very early this morning (neighbors must love me). It was high 60s, very low 70s out. Car hung out around 170-180 around town. Creeped up above 180 - closer to 190 at highway speeds. Doesn't seem right. Doesn't seem taking out the trans cooler really had any effect, so I put it back in. Also put in the right baffling on each side of the radiator. That didn't really have any effect either, but at least I have the right stuff in there.

It's not running "hot", as in too hot, but it's running hotter than I like. Maybe the RMI 25 I had in it before I yanked the motor really made all that difference? I'll try that next (Nick - need some RMI-25, and I have your balancer too - been in the back of my truck for weeks. Better late than never, right? I'll shoot you an e-mail).

Jim

 

[Chuck Leeper]

190's??

If the temps continue to rise at hiway speeds vs around town, the higher WP speed is moving the water faster, and as such, the rad should be capable of rejecting the added heat.
If you have a 160 stat, new rad of the proper capacity, clean engine, good hoses and a good cap, etc, the engine should run within 5* of the stat...PERIOD!!
There is SOMETHING adding more heat than the system can reject.
I'm suggesting that there is a leaky head gasket, cracked head, cracked cyl. wall, putting exh. gases into the water...
There could also be a air lock in the block.
I use Nick's RMI, and find at least a 10* drop in op. temps.. That's with a properly operating system...

The bottom tank temps should be 20+ degrees cooler than top tank when they exit the rad to the WP. If you are not seeing that drop, then look at the rad and have it flow tested.

I have a CAS alum rad, ft mt, and a STOCK fan wired to run on high.. At ambients of 90+, I see the engine, at cruise rpm of 2700 to 3000, [T-400!!], running at 165 to 170 w/ a stock pump, 160 stat.. The cam has more "hair on it" than most too, and that overlap doesn't help w/ cooling!!

My story and I'm stickin to it!!

 

[turbojimmy]

Thanks for the reply, Chuck.

I have one of Nick's radiators and it worked great before, engine is new (clean), fan is working, 160 stat, etc.

I'll have to do some more digging. I'm not losing any coolant, and it's not bubbling into the overflow tank. How would I know if I have a bad head gasket, cracked cylinder wall, etc.?

If there really was an air lock in the block, how do I fix that. Drain it and start over? The one thing I found odd about when I first started it up was that it didn't want more coolant once the thermostat opened. Usually, you get a big drop in the coolant level in the radiator once the stat opens. But, I had filled it and let it sit overnight, too, and topped it off in the morning. Maybe it seeped in overnight?

Thanks,
Jim

 

[Chuck Leeper]

No more H2O after hot??

Jimmy, that is ODD!! I too, have never seen a system that didn't take a considerable amt more when stat opened... Looking at the system: The stat is closed, the upper hose at the rad is above the stat, the WP intake is above the lower rad outlet, there's no pressure feed to force H2O to take an unusual path when you pour it in the top tank, other than the column of H2O that you create when you fill the rad.
The available space in the hose, rad tanks and core fills and the excess goes into the block. Once the engine is started, the water is pumped to the heads, heater core and such. With the stat being closed, the by-pass is the path back to the rad. This By pass also allows air to be relieved to the top tank, where it SHOULD dissapate, either into the open neck,[bubbles] or if the cap is on, to the overflow once it exceeds the cap setting...MOST folks leave the cap off and continue to monitor the level, adding as needed.

Having said ALL that, [ ]I see no way that you filled the entire system, eliminated the trapped air, and had a FULL sytem in the initial filling....

??? IS the stat in BACKWARDS??? If it is, it could cause a restriction to flow at higher engine speeds....
IS the wire coil in the lower hose?? If not, it WILL be sucked shut, or at best nearly shut, and cause exactly what you are seeing at hi speeds!!

As for the cracks, gaskets, etc... I'd run a cooling system pressure check. I had 1 here, just last week that showed a bit of "condensation" on the oil cap... A system check revealed a tiny leak.. Fortuantely it was most likely a ft cover bolt leaking and 4 GM pellets cured it, almost immediately...
How old is the rad?? Did you use any "block sealers" w/ the problems you had in the old engine??

Bout it from here for now...

 

[turbojimmy]

Chuck,

Turns out I don't have the coil in the lower rad hose. Just went out and gave it a squeeze. Ain't there. That could be at least part of the problem. It's a new hose, didn't come with a spring so I must've tossed my old one. I guess I'll have to get one from a salvage yard.

Thermostat is in right, but I'm not sure if the guy that built my engine changed it out or not. I did have a 160 in there, and it doesn't look like he even had that apart. I can't tell by the gauge when it opens. Car starts and pretty much immediately shoots up to "operating" temp - around 170-180 depending on outside temps. It's very sensitive to the outside temp - shouldn't be.

When I filled it, I put in as much as it would take without it running. Once I started it, I had the cap off and a full gallon of 50/50 ready to go. Waited and waited for the stat to open and for the level to drop. Never did, really. It took maybe 1/2 a gallon over the next few days. The level it's at now seems to be where it's going to stay. Hasn't changed in a while.

Maybe I should change out that stat since it's kind of an unknown? The radiator is new for all intents and purposes. I put a few miles on it with the old motor, but not many. Didn't use any sealers or anything like that on the old motor.

Thanks,
Jim

 

[Chuck Leeper]

Coil in hose??

Jimmy, I'd be right back to where you got that hose, demanding that it be replaced w/ a new hose w/ the coil, or your $ back.. I've NEVER bought 1 that didn't have a coil in it!!
Even if it is new, w/out the coil, it WILL suck down when engine rpm goes up!!
Grab it and have someone rev the engine....

Salvage yard "ain't no good" either.. they'll be rusted up and eventually break.
If the temp "shoots up" to 170-180 on cold start, I suspect there's a problem w/ the flow and it could be the bypass hose has collapsed. [If it's too long when installed, it WILL kink on the inside of the bend and cut off the flow].
My son's car, my 2 cars, ALL rise over a period of 5 to 10 minutes.. We always let them idle til hot

"Nuther ider".!! What if the stat is STUCK almost shut and isn't even in the equation and the H2O is circulating thru the PARTLY open stat and the bypass hose? That scenario could allow for:
1. FAST warmup.
2. Temps too high, but tolerable at low rpm.
3. Reason the temps keep climbing when on the highway...

Get the stat changed, the by pass hose checked, the lower hose replaced w/ 1 with the coil and lets see what happens...

 

[turbojimmy]

Re: Coil in hose??

Originally posted by Chuck Leeper
Jimmy, I'd be right back to where you got that hose, demanding that it be replaced w/ a new hose w/ the coil, or your $ back.. I've NEVER bought 1 that didn't have a coil in it!!
Even if it is new, w/out the coil, it WILL suck down when engine rpm goes up!!
Grab it and have someone rev the engine....

Salvage yard "ain't no good" either.. they'll be rusted up and eventually break.
If the temp "shoots up" to 170-180 on cold start, I suspect there's a problem w/ the flow and it could be the bypass hose has collapsed. [If it's too long when installed, it WILL kink on the inside of the bend and cut off the flow].
My son's car, my 2 cars, ALL rise over a period of 5 to 10 minutes.. We always let them idle til hot

"Nuther ider".!! What if the stat is STUCK almost shut and isn't even in the equation and the H2O is circulating thru the PARTLY open stat and the bypass hose? That scenario could allow for:
1. FAST warmup.
2. Temps too high, but tolerable at low rpm.
3. Reason the temps keep climbing when on the highway...

Get the stat changed, the by pass hose checked, the lower hose replaced w/ 1 with the coil and lets see what happens...

I'll swap out the stat and check the bypass hose. I might have it on "pinched". I'll also get another hose from the auto parts store. I'm a frequent flyer there so they're good to me when things aren't right.

I want to change my symptoms a bit, though. I just did some exhaustive research......

80 degrees out today, which should be irrelevant.

1) Constant cruise on the highway at 70 MPH: temps settled at 170 and stayed there. When I got on it to change lanes (under boost) or climbed hills, temp creeped up a bit and settled back down.

2) Around town - 35-60 MPH hills and lights. Climbs to 190-195 (this is why I thought it was climbing at highway speeds)

3) Around the 'hood: 25 MPH constant, hills, stopping, etc. Pretty damn close to 200 - between 195 and 200

4) Idling in the driveway - 200 degrees, slowly creeped down when I drove home (25-30 MPH for about a mile)

Thanks,
Jim

 

[Chuck Leeper]

New discoverys

Jim, that thing should sit in the dway all day and not get that hot!!
Most likely borderline hot and then when there's no air movement, it heats up..
Should not show IMMEDIATE rise because you punched it a bit...
also, slow driving in the hood.. poor air circulation.
ARE you SURE the ga. is right?? elec or mech?
At what temp does the fan come on?? Does the fan run when sitting in the dway?? IF not, grnd the sw and turn it on and see if the temps drop.

Chuck