New hotair intakes underway!

[6SENSE]

typhoon, I have been following your progress and let me say that the intake looks very nice. I currently have a TM V1 intake and had been pondering moving the TB off the turbo. I was thinking about possibly cutting into the top of the V1 and adapting a 86/87 doghouse and welding up the inlet hole in the back. Your mock up of this setup looks much like the drawings I made a while back. Your intake would save me alot of time for sure. Dont know what I will actually do, but I will keep following the thread.

The pictures really look great. Don't get me wrong I see your logic in trying to make a better hot air car, but why? I would like to see it hooked up to an intercooler for the test, because even if it makes an improvent over the hot air manifold it would never justify the expense to keep it hot air. The reason that an intercooler is used besides the fact that you get more power is that it helps the engine live longer. Why do you think the 84-85 cars spent so much time in the Buick warranty shops, HOT AIR. Set it up for intercooler and do the tests then make an adaptor to slip on to make it hot air if you really need to test hot air. The intercooled results are what we are waiting for. Thanks for doing what appears to be alot of work and good luck in the testing, I will be waiting to hear the results. I see that imagination and innovation are definitely at work in your shop. Thanks

Mr.Buick, sorry not trying to start anything here, but I think your way off base with some of your comments. There is perfect reason for keeping the car hotair. Alot of hotair owners want to keep their cars hotair. There is only a small fraction that have converted to intercooled. I have seen more people on this board speak of keeping their car hotair than those crying that they have to have a intercooler. Those who really would have rather had a intercooled car should/would consider getting a 86/87 car IMO. 87s are plentiful, these cars are not which makes them a rarity. What "expense" is there to keep it hotair? Maybe more to intercool it.
Performance CAN be had with a nonintercooled 84/85, if that is what you are worrying about. They respond to mods and tuning just like 86/87s, sometimes it seems more so. I dont feel I have gone too drastic with my bolt ons and have jumped 2.5-3 seconds off the stock et for 12 sec #s. No intercooler, and smaller turbo than the smallest upgrade for the 86/87s. If Im not a good example we will have no problem naming others here that are .
Is there anythign to back up the comment about hotair cars in warranty shops? It is okay to have opinions, but....my personal experience having a '84, '86, and '87 here definately does not follow that comment.
Like I said I am not trying to be negative or start anything. Lets just keep a persons opinions as opinions and not try to portray them as facts that lead to misinformation. Misinformation read and digested by those who are new or not as knowledgable [yet] who are trying to learn. "The intercooled results are what we are looking for" is an opinion, IMO

P.S. some people with original intercooled cars have removed there intercoolers in search of performance (not just speaking of TRs).

 

[national84]

Let me make a few comments here if I may,


#1 the intent of this kit was to improve the intake first and foremost, but also to allow the use of the 86-97 intercooler. With only a set of custom made pipes you can easilt mount the 86-87 intercooler on here, or even an upgraded intercooler for that matter.

The ONLY reason this 1st prototype will not be getting an intercooler is because Jeff doesn't want an intercooler. As he stated earlier, some experimentation has been done with deleting the intercooler from a Syclone and adding alky, the results were better spool, better throttle response and better intake charge temperatures. Jeff, like most hotair car owners bought for price, but is also one of those guys who likes to do things a little different than everyone else.

I am getting ready to contact the future owner of prototype #2, who already has the TM v2 kit on one car, and all the intercooler parts to do this kit on his other. There will be an intercooler mocked up on his car.

My car will be intercooled with this kit, thats what I want. Well, unless the results with Jeffs really blow me away anyhow.

#2 we have run dyno tests on a bone stock engine, and will be trying to run a back to back scenario with as few changes as possible. Mind you, the other engine will not take anymore hp, its really tired at this point. And our other engine had a few wiped lobes, so we had very little choice but to make some changes.
-this new engine has original rods, pistons, rings, etc, etc.
-we had to replace the cam so we went to a comp 212/212
new lifters and valve springs (nothing fancy) While this is not a stock cam, it is also not huge by any means
-gasket match on hte heads, and intake is as tested from flow bench earlier.
We couldn't justify tracking down a stock cam installing it and then yankin it out after a few minor test runs.

#3 We have access to a pt52 turbo since I am upgrading to a t63e, and while Jeff denies this I am sure it will end up on that engine for at least a little while.

To put your minds to ease, please not that testing will be done both with and without alky, so you will have you choice...oh yeah, and I ma certain the intercooled version will recieve the same tratment.


Sorry for the book guys, just wanted to address everyones questions.


BTW, since Jeff is only 130 miles from Bowling Green, I took my vacation for the Nats and will be taking the car down for show and tell, we will also have a TM v2 car there for comparison and hopefully the prototype 2 intercooled car as well.

 

[racemybuick]

Ok Guys, I am loving this idea so far...Keeping it hot air, with the option to intercool...The piping looks fantastic, and Alky seems to be the mod of the new millenium, so keep it up. What I am interested in, very much so, are the basics of the motor. I see you have the comp cam, stock for most everything else internally, but what headers, injectors, FPR, DP, and all the bolt ons? Are you going to do the same usual upgrades like the most common ones I just mentioned?

I purchased most of those parts already, waiting on a few more, and I am very, very interested in one of these intakes when they are available, however, I dont want to sell my 3"dp from mease, or my atr uppipe, or any of the expensive goodies, just to add a better flowing intake. I feel my intake from IWINENGINEERING is a superb port job and a great clean item from those guys, plus I know other cars (hot air) that run well deep into the 11's with the exact same intake as mine...

Basically, what I am asking is, will this turbo not only allow for 86 87 conversions, but also outflow the common port and polish job done by most machine shops in our buick community? I plan on running intot he mid 11's with my car, as safely and efficiently as possible, and if that means buying one of your intakes, then I will send payment as soon as I am told!!! Keep up the great work, and please, feel free to post any pics!!!

John

 

[national84]

As Jeff said he's not running a race car. Its got an AFPR just like everyone elses, standard reliability stuff, a tuenup, etc.

stock manifolds, stock dp, stock everything else. Now, I have the 3" and Duttweiller headers, etc, etc. But thats not what this test car was about.

Each individual has to build their car to their needs, and each car has to be specifically tuned to make that combo work correctly. If somebody tells you that buying x list of parts will put you in the 11's, they are either selling you the parts or they are full of BS.

If you are asking if this intake will go into the 11's, I think it could with good heads, a good port and polish job, lots of tuning and the right components. But I cannot say how far it will go, until it has been tried in many different combos. I personally am going to run twins on my car with this setup, I am not hoping for 9's, I just want to run twins for the hell of it.

Hopefully, with the mild mods to a "stock" engine we will see good performance results. I am anticipating mid 13's with a mild amount of tuning and tweaking of fp, etc. Not by any means a fast car, but respectible none the less for a car with a cam upgrade and basically no other mods. I understand that the intake is a mod, but it id truly a "bolt on" and can be done in your driveway in a weekend.

My stock car ran 15.1 when I bought it in 92, and in my book if you can cut 1.5 seconds off the et in a days time and improve overall driveability, you got a good product.

Who knows how fast these will eventually go, its going to take a few guys running them different ways to see what will come of this

 

[broke1]

racemybuick,when you decide to get rid of that intake let me know,I call dibs

 

[Mr.Buick]

Modified Intake

Please reread my post, I have nothing against hot air cars. My friend worked for Buick back in the days the 1984 was new. He was very impressed with the performance of the GN and said they used to smoke the tires from the parking lot to the garage on many occasions. If left stock at 10 lb boost they were great, but who left it stock! He told me stories of burned pistons and adjustable waste gates that were set back to 10 lbs when they came in for warrany work. In the early days I don't think they were using much alcohol. I think a few hot air cars even reached the 11's after proper tweaking. I think it is great that you are doing this and if hot air cars get a better manifold that is wonderful. All I was saying is wouldn't it be great if the hot air cars could reap the benifits of a cooler air charge? I was reading about a 1987 GN that took off the intercooler and ran the turbo out let stright to the throttle body and was claiming very good performance. I stock intercooler restricted the air flow and he felt the performance would increase by removing it. I haven't heard any more about it so maybe it didn't work as well as he thought. I would think that the larger 87 turbo straight into the throttle body would be close to what you are planning. Once again I think you are doing a great job, keep up the good work.

 

[Mr.Buick]

Modified Intake

I know you probably already tried this, but after looking at your pictures I have to ask, what if you tried using an 86-87 manifold to start with?. The plenum could be cut down the same way and the thermostat housing wouldn't be a problem. The height looks about the same. I know that it looks to easy so there must be a reason that it won't work.

 

[national84]

First, I want to thank everyone for the comments and ideas....thats why we posted about these before they were finished.

wouldn't it be great if the hot air cars could reap the benifits of a cooler air

YES, and thats what we are doing. I have just confirmed that Prototype 2 will be with us soon, and we will be mocking up the intercooler brackets and piping on the engine stand with our worn out test mule, then switching it over when the next test car arrives. We have the intercooler and all the parts already at the shop...just a gasket kit and some fabrication away from the intercooler version.
PLease not that some of the Hotair owners are adamant about staying that way, and we intend to have a product that will allow either style system. Also, those who already have the Spearco kit will be glad to know that this kit will work for you as well, you will just replace the pipes going to the new TB location and get an inlet bell to attach your current pipe to your tubo and off you go.

what if you tried using an 86-87 manifold to start with?.

Ok, we originally intended to do just that, but there are too many issues with accessories and brackets, the coil pack, etc, etc, and there is jsut no way the turbo would adequately clear the back of the manifold. Earlier I read that someone tried this and got it to work, but it was more effort than just doing a complete 86-87 conversion.


Oh yeah, and for those of you who have had your intakes ported or have done them yourselves, we can easily just have you ship your intake to us, we will do the conversion and send you your intake back. Our changes do not modify the port runners at all, so if you have a good P&P job there is no reason we can't keep it that way.

 

[typhoon]

2 hours into engine swap.

Mike is on his way down. New motor looks much nicer than the old one does.

So far everything is bolting up to the new engine like it should. No suprises yet, although I am sure one may come before engine is up and running.

 

[racemybuick]

thanks for the reply. Make sure to send pics asap of that motor swap...I wanna see how you guys are doing it!!!

John

 

[national84]

Allright, the worn out stock engine is one the floor and the new prototypte engine shoudl be in by this afternoon.

Stay tuned for more details

 

[turbojustin]

Any idea of cost yet?

 

[national84]

We haven't settled on kit price yet for the intercooled version, we are thinking in the $500 range for the intake and plenum exchange. If you want your own intake back we can do that too, but it will take a little longer than just taking one out of the box and shipping the other....however, it will allow you to send your pre-ported intake, so all your pesonal tweaks and touches will stay in tact.

It seems that overwhelmingly the stock 86-87 pieces are what most of you want, so I was thinking that we would post a list of all the stock 86-87 parts necessary for the kit install and let you guys track them down...many of you may have some of the parts already, or know someone who does....this will definitely save you some $$.

The car should be running reliably by the weekend, when the final design and tweaking are done on this prototype, we will attack the one on the engine stand. This next one will be assembled outside the car...i/c brackets and all, then dis-assembled and installed into the next test car. We have a few cosmetic changes to make to the next one, but overall the actual build time should be short and sweet now that we have 90% of the design questions answered.

This just in, the new engine is now sitting in the engine bay and partially bolted down...Jeff must be getting excited, he never moves this fast.

We are hoping to make a kit that comes ready to run, and is fully expandable to become an intercooled unit if you so desire.....pipe location is ideal for attachment to the stock location intercoolers available.

 

[typhoon]

Added a few pics for those following this closely of the engine sitting in the car.

Obviously still a few things left to hook up, but with a 3day weekend and couple friends coming down to help with luck it will be running in a week.

http://s94691562.onlinehome.us/gallery/buickmotor

 

[Mr.Buick]

Modified Intake

Couple of quick questions, what are you going to do with the water pump bypass that was connected to the thermostat housing? and how are you planning to connect the turbo to the new tubing? What size turbo is that? What size injectors are you planning to use? The installation looks great so far, keep posting pictures as you go, I wish I lived close enough to come over and help.

 

[typhoon]

Re: Modified Intake

Originally posted by Mr.Buick
Couple of quick questions, what are you going to do with the water pump bypass that was connected to the thermostat housing? and how are you planning to connect the turbo to the new tubing? What size turbo is that? What size injectors are you planning to use? The installation looks great so far, keep posting pictures as you go, I wish I lived close enough to come over and help.

Water pump bypass. There currently is the dash gauge sensor in the front of intake. Plan is to remove that, install a 90 deg fitting. Stock hose will bolt right up. Should be clean.

The sensor can then move to the untapped bung on top of intake, which will be tapped. (although I forgot to tap intake before install, so will probably lose my dash idiot light for now.)

Turbo to new metal pipe will be done with silicon hose connector. Stock turbo for testing, although we have a 51 if we want to play. Trying to keep changes minimal.

Injectors are spares from my typhoon. So just slightly bigger than stock buick. My goals for car is daily driver, not big numbers so going bigger on injectors shouldn't be needed, yet anyways.

I do wish I had time to clean other part of engine up while it was out, but being is my daily car, and my typhoon is in pieces already I didn't need 2 cars down for months or years.

 

[national84]

What size turbo is that? What size injectors are you planning to use?

That Chrome polished turbo in the picture is a t63e...its the replacement for the 50 series thats on my Typhoon right now...we used it for mock up as a biggest case scenario...it appears to fit nicely. There is a minor clearance issue with the vacuum port on the top of the turbo, but could easily be worked out if this turbo were to go on car.

The injectors are stock Syclone/Typhoon units (30 lbs) Just used them because they are known to be good, and a little more fuel never hurts when things may get bigger down the road.

 

[typhoon]

The car came to life last night, although we didn't get to run it long due to a fair amount of hoses still not hooked up like the tranny line. (cat litter to rescue). Hey it was 1:30 in the morning.

In next couple days will be playing with the other minor time consuming things like radiator, electric fan, vacuum lines.

But for it to start on first try and actually run smooth gave us lots of hope.

 

[FJM568]

Originally posted by national84





quote:

what if you tried using an 86-87 manifold to start with?.



Ok, we originally intended to do just that, but there are too many issues with accessories and brackets, the coil pack, etc, etc, and there is jsut no way the turbo would adequately clear the back of the manifold. Earlier I read that someone tried this and got it to work, but it was more effort than just doing a complete 86-87 conversion.

Did I hear someone talking about me??? The pics are right at the top of this hotair forum...It was a pain to do, BUT as someone has suggested, it may have been easier to modify the 86/7 lower intake and weld all the stuff to the top of it, rather than cut open and modify everything on the 84/5 intakes...The only really tricky parts is the thermostat housing ends up kind of behind the alt/ac bracket...Which requires the 86/7 upper rad hose...Relocating the coil pack farther to the drivers side of the motor(kind of covering up the power steering res.) and the other thing that really causes problems with it is the turbo mount bracket has to be trimmed to fit on the intake...The way that the intake is cast at the head mount flanges is different and causes the turbo mount bracket to sit at a different angle and shifts the turbo slightly to the passenger side of the car and it sits up a little higher...That can be fixed relatively simply while the intake is set up and getting machined for all the mods...Things are a bit tight there now, but by no means is it impossible...

 

[FJM568]

WOW!!! That is pretty sweet looking!!! I just looked through the pics from that link...Looks to be well thought out...

Was the thermostat housing modified or did you source one from a different motor???

Are there any pics of it completely assembled(as run) in the latest posts??? This could get be getting very interesting....

Good job and here's hoping that it runs as well as it looks!!!