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New motor with bottom end noise

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it was trouble from the start. they didnt meet the deadline they promised...they werent even close! then sent wrong pushrods, then it broke and you would spend more money with them cause they offered a reduced price? thats nuts!! they didnt ship it either...this was an in person pick up.

My build was quoted as taking 6-8 weeks, ended up being 5 months, but that did not bother me as I knew their workload was huge at the time. Was I anxious to have it completed, yes, but I did not want them to rush on it. The mixup in the pushrods would have happened at most any shop, with someone else installing the heads.

You really need to get some data as to improper build specs to make your story more credible. The pictures show multiple issues with bearings other than just the rod bearings. The thrust bearing for one is shot, this should not have happened since the OE crank was bolted back into place with the torque converter that also had previously been used, and the engine saw NO boost. The pic of the valves, I would hope that he put new plugs in a new engine, the plug shows signs of detonation. Like I previously said measurements will put an end to tell the story, one way or the other.
 
did you take a look at the pistons yet? just asking cause I just lost a motor with 150 miles on it and turns out the diamond pistons are the issue. the pin bores are not square to the skirts (out .010) and it ate the crank. my builder was stumped as to why it developed a knock and checked everything twice and this was the conclusion. pistons and rods went back to diamond friday. hoopefully they are good about it.....

Dave did you get these parts from Webber???
 
Got them new from Jack at the winter bash. They looked fine (like you could tell by looking). Who would suspect brand new pistons by a US manufacturer to be milled crooked? Hope they check the other ones done at that time frame. Who knows where any other ones went. Could explain some bad experiences with rebuilt engines!
 
6-8weeks?!

So i guess i can expect the same 6-8 week deal (5 months)?!
When i ordered my build, bill said "we have a block sitting in front of the machine ready to go for your build":rolleyes: But i guess it gets pushed back every so often cause may $10grand plus build isn't important:wink:
Plus they know me from know where.

Patience,patience. just better be done RIGHT
 
My build was quoted as taking 6-8 weeks, ended up being 5 months, but that did not bother me as I knew their workload was huge at the time. Was I anxious to have it completed, yes, but I did not want them to rush on it.
there should not be that big of a difference regardless of what their situation is.. all that matter to the customer is their own parts, not everyone elses stuff or the shops workload. As a customer i shouldnt have to worry that a place is going to rush a job. i should expect them to meet or come close to a quoted time and price and be done correctly. that is called good business.

in the car world we have come to accept this kinda crap from engine, body and chrome shops... we shouldnt. i know of way too many people that have cars sitting at body shops for YEARS!!!!
 
It's everyday life that we have become accepting of this practice. The services and medical industries are the worst. Unfortunately it is something that we all are going to have to deal with from now on, and the wait times are liable to become worse in the future.
 
Got them new from Jack at the winter bash. They looked fine (like you could tell by looking). Who would suspect brand new pistons by a US manufacturer to be milled crooked? Hope they check the other ones done at that time frame. Who knows where any other ones went. Could explain some bad experiences with rebuilt engines!

well this has nothing to do with Webber. maybe start his own thread. I find it hard to believe about the pistons. They make a gazillion of these every day. Who was the machine shop ???opps.. start a new thread :cool:
 
there should not be that big of a difference regardless of what their situation is.. all that matter to the customer is their own parts, not everyone elses stuff or the shops workload. As a customer i shouldnt have to worry that a place is going to rush a job. i should expect them to meet or come close to a quoted time and price and be done correctly. that is called good business.

in the car world we have come to accept this kinda crap from engine, body and chrome shops... we shouldnt. i know of way too many people that have cars sitting at body shops for YEARS!!!!
you are 100% correct.
unless i am getting a huge discount then its ok to push me back.

But at regular unhaggled prices -you said 6-8 weeks i want my stuff done.
 
well this has nothing to do with Webber. maybe start his own thread. I find it hard to believe about the pistons. They make a gazillion of these every day. Who was the machine shop ???opps.. start a new thread :cool:

Once Dave gets the report from Diamond, he'll post it up I'm sure.
 
never said it had anything to do with webber. just told him to look at pistons. Dan you know my builder Julian (worked at R&R). waiting to hear from diamond.
not trying to hi-jack post.. Sorry
 
The reason there was not more heard from me or any of my employees is because it becomes a pissing contest. We have stated the facts and they are either not read or are quickly forgotten and coincidentally enough it seems to be more common with certain people?

It seems that many that have chimed in on this post ignored the fact that ALL of the rod bearings were shined (worn) and identical! Please keep in mind that all the clearances were identical and perfect. How did they get shined???? They came in contact with the crank is how! How did that happen? When you have clearance (any clearance) there is only one way; no oil keeping the bearings from making contact! An expert can see by the pattern of wear on the bearings that there was no bent or crooked rods, misaligned pin bores, out of round rods, or 010" under bearings installed with a .020" under crank. With this in mind it is obvious that lack of oil was an issue without a doubt. And apparently the bearing that failed completey starved more due to it being the the last main in line to get oil that has to supply oil to two rod bearings. Add to that that each rod only gets oil for 180 degrees of crank revolution with a factory GN crank and you have the explanation why one rod could see a different circumstance than another. When contact with the crank is great enough bearing material get smeared to the crank and when that happens the bearing continues to deteriorate until the bearing material is noticed in the oil on the dipstick by an observant installer, the knocking is heard, the bearing spins and the resulting knocking is heard by someone else and they alert the owner that there is a problem with the engine, or the knocking continues until the rod comes out of the block.
As mentioned in the reply, we offered to deeply discount the repair as good customer service. We did not have to do this as there is no question as to the cause of this problem (logic and pictures tell the story). We did not threaten the customer. The customer threatened us with "I have a thread started of the problem but have not yet made mention of the vendor".

When a professional or qualified engine assembler orders pushrods for an engine, it is usually done by length. When it is done by application especially in a performance engine, you are lucky to get that right the first time. If we installed the heads and measured for the pushrod length, I can assure you there would have been no problem.

If this B.S. would not be so common, boards like this one would get more input from quality upstanding veterans of the industry that have forgotten more than many of the loadmouths that continually help cause and perpetuate threads like this!

With any engine build, there are many variables involved that can cause premature engine failure. Whether it’s a product defect, or human error, problems can and do happen. When it comes to assigning responsibility for an engine failing, one must first determine the cause of the failure. In this particular case, we did have an opportunity to inspect the components so that we could assess the cause and ultimately help the customer solve the problem.

It is important to note that this was a short block build, with cam and customer supplied front cover installed (after we went through it of coarse), and was shipped as such. When it came to us for inspection, we were provided the cylinder heads and oil pan. The pan had visible signs of excessive amounts of silicone which had squeezed inside the block. Keep in mind we did not install the oil pan. One rod bearing was heavily damaged and the others were shined. The thrust bearing was also worn on the backside from the crankshaft having pressure applied to it during operation. As one can view from the pictures, all of the bearings were shined significantly which is caused by contact with the crankshaft, which is caused by either lack of oil or clearance. With .002” of oil clearance, there is only LACK OF OIL TO BE THE CAUSE. There are several things that must be done properly after an engine leaves our control (especially on a shortblock) to ensure proper lubrication and many other things. Once it is no longer in our possession, we have no ability to ensure that it is done properly to prevent a failure. I wish there was a way for us as engine builders to ensure that everything is done properly after it leaves our facility, but there is not.

We torqued and checked each of the main and rod bearing clearances again after disassembly which resulted in all perfect tolerances. The oil passages were clear and the bearings, crankshaft and components show no sign of contamination.
Because this problem is oil related, we inspected the oil pump drive shaft. There were no signs of any tooling used to prime the pump. However, the customer did note that he did prime the pump with a drill and that he received a reading of approx. 30 PSI ??? Those that have primed and inspected oiling systems do understand that using a drill to prime an oiling system will easily produce 55+ PSI. The customer stated that the running oil pressure was approx. 65#. This is the pressure that should have been observed during priming. This discrepancy leads us to question the priming process again. We inspected the front cover and all was within proper tolerances.

Everything that we observed during the inspection process shows signs that the oil pump either was not primed or was improperly primed. With no visible markings on the oil pump drive shaft, as are commonly produced during the priming process with a drill, we are leaning towards a lack of priming altogether. Keep in mind we have seen people fail to prime oil systems in our many years of professional engine building and the damage produced is eerily similar.

In an attempt to help this customer, we offered to repair the damage at a steeply reduced price. We felt this to be more than fair since the engine was starved of oil and not because of contamination, clearances, or anything else that we have any control over. The customer decided to remove the engine from our shop and was not billed for the disassembly and inspection.

While it is unfortunate that this customer is not satisfied with the outcome, as we are not either, it does highlight some of the problems engine builders face in this industry. Especially when building short blocks, the build leaves the shop and gets placed in the hands of those with varying skill levels. Thankfully most of those that receive our engines are finished, installed and tuned by skilled customers or professionals. Unfortunately some are not. And while we stand behind our builds 110%, we simply can not insure work which should have been performed by the customer and/or their installers and tuners.

I have two kids and teach them to be responsible and accountable. If they make a mistake, they must deal with the consequences. Depending on the situation, I may help them reduce their pain but under no circumstances will I allow them to push the responsibility on to someone else. The lack of this mindset is a growing problem in our society and I hope the members of this board and community can appreciate this. I feel for this customer which is why we offered to help, but I can not stomach paying for someone else’s mistake.



While posted by me (Bill), this response comes directly from Bryan Weber.
 
The reason there was not more heard from me or any of my employees is because it becomes a pissing contest. We have stated the facts and they are either not read or are quickly forgotten and coincidentally enough it seems to be more common with certain people?

It seems that many that have chimed in on this post ignored the fact that ALL of the rod bearings were shined (worn) and identical! Please keep in mind that all the clearances were identical and perfect. How did they get shined???? They came in contact with the crank is how! How did that happen? When you have clearance (any clearance) there is only one way; no oil keeping the bearings from making contact! An expert can see by the pattern of wear on the bearings that there was no bent or crooked rods, misaligned pin bores, out of round rods, or 010" under bearings installed with a .020" under crank. With this in mind it is obvious that lack of oil was an issue without a doubt. And apparently the bearing that failed completey starved more due to it being the the last main in line to get oil that has to supply oil to two rod bearings. Add to that that each rod only gets oil for 180 degrees of crank revolution with a factory GN crank and you have the explanation why one rod could see a different circumstance than another. When contact with the crank is great enough bearing material get smeared to the crank and when that happens the bearing continues to deteriorate until the bearing material is noticed in the oil on the dipstick by an observant installer, the knocking is heard, the bearing spins and the resulting knocking is heard by someone else and they alert the owner that there is a problem with the engine, or the knocking continues until the rod comes out of the block.
As mentioned in the reply, we offered to deeply discount the repair as good customer service. We did not have to do this as there is no question as to the cause of this problem (logic and pictures tell the story). We did not threaten the customer. The customer threatened us with "I have a thread started of the problem but have not yet made mention of the vendor".

When a professional or qualified engine assembler orders pushrods for an engine, it is usually done by length. When it is done by application especially in a performance engine, you are lucky to get that right the first time. If we installed the heads and measured for the pushrod length, I can assure you there would have been no problem.

If this B.S. would not be so common, boards like this one would get more input from quality upstanding veterans of the industry that have forgotten more than many of the loadmouths that continually help cause and perpetuate threads like this!



Bryan

I really appreciate the fact that you came in here to address this issuse. But i can't seem to understand why it took you so long to do so. I understand that your a busy man. But this is your reputation here and the fact that someone else came in here and spoke on your behalf really speaks in volumes. Your name is on the sign out front right? So it would seem fitting that you be the one to respond to this matter.
 
tell how he was REALLY treated.... he was not allowed to speak to the owner when he repeatedly asked.. the engine builder ****ed up and didnt want his boss to find out... then when he left you guys threatened him...the victim "dont be bashing us on turbo buick" thats chicken **** bad business. i would have contacted the ohio state attorney general and watched how fast your tune changed. thats the whole problem in all this...not the damage, not the lack of accountability but the total ignorant treatment by non supervisor employees.. its not their job to being treating him that way... the OWNER should have been dealing with him at that point. thats some mickey mouse ****.

I suggest that you get your facts straight before before making accusations and slamming someone! My employees made me aware of this issue as soon as the customer called with the problem. I personally inspected the engine components, made the determination of the cause, and told my emplyees what discounted offer to make to the customer.
You were correct when you said it is all about business. It is good business to help people and to try to maintain good relations. It is bad business to offer unconditional warranties and there is no successful engine builder or rebuilding business that does.
I apologize that your buddy did not like to hear what the facts were but that can't change them. The customer experienced a problem that he caused which is proven by analyzing the components. It is supported with his story of how he primed the engine changing three times and the proof of that being B.S. is his statement of the oil pressure readings he had when priming. This statement was made early in this thread if anyone would like to read up on it.
If this guy would have been honest with us, we may have offered him even more assistance than we did. The fact that we were not being told the truth combined with the fact that we had ABSOLUTELY ZERO fault for the problem, is more than enough reason to not offer him anything.
Dispite all of this we offered to help and can't imaging how anyone could see that as not standing by your product(s)!
 
Bryan

I really appreciate the fact that you came in here to address this issuse. But i can't seem to understand why it took you so long to do so. I understand that your a busy man. But this is your reputation here and the fact that someone else came in here and spoke on your behalf really speaks in volumes. Your name is on the sign out front right? So it would seem fitting that you be the one to respond to this matter.

You are correct that the business is mine but I am not the business. The business is the some of its parts. It is represented by Bill and Sean (quite well I might add) every day and all day. It is not just MY reputation, it is OUR reputation. We are a team and we as a team do what is necessary. As your business operations grow, so does the amount of things that need to be done on a regular basis. With there being only so many hours in the day to go around, this makes there being even more things that I (or any owner) can not do himself.
Then comes the fact that frankly I have become sick and tired of this B.S.! A logical person starts to question after a while of why he should have to deal with stupid sh**t like this when he does nothing to deserve it. I get up in the morning and go to work to make a living to supoort my family. The days of building engines to feed my ego are long gone. I really don't care what I do as far as work but life is too short for this crap.
 
Thank you for coming on here and standing by your product Bryan!! It seems like this is what the PEOPLE wanted.

BTW, my WRE Stroker is stroking!! :cool: Quite hard I might add!! :p
 
First off the motor was primed for over 15mins. Second were you there for any of the times i was at your shop No you were not. Everytime i asked to speak with you your flunkie shawn would dodge it or tell me you were unavalible. The idiot Bill that works your counter has no clue what he is doing and lied to me a number of times about when my motor was gonna be done He told me 3 to 5 weeks when i brought it to you and it took you 3months and a couple of weeks. I did not recive a build sheet when i recived my motor. Ive had a number of friend that got motors from you and all of them recived build sheets. Iam not saying you do bad work and get that strait. But when shawn said that you never had a motor fail i knew he was full of ****. People make mistakes and one was made and not caused by me. Ive had 4 different machine shops in my area look at your work and was told that the failure was not caused by oil starvation. Its all good now i have a machine shop that has done many buick engines here that is doing the work for me this time and hes not afraid to go over the whole build with me as its done and will have a build sheet with it when its done and by the way your way over priced on your work for a semi stock build. By the way 1500 dollars to redo the work your guy screwed up was not realy helping me out i have 4 other engines that need built and you lost those for sure. Good luck in life and have a great day Byran. Oh and nice work on speaking up 3 months later.
 
And another thing ive searched weber on other fourms and you dont have such a good track record like you think you do.
 
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