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nitrous/methanol results

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Razor

Forum tech Advisor
Staff member
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Jul 31, 2001
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Sorry for the tease due to completeness of this post, but I always like to share as soon as info on stuff like this becomes available. I still need to gather and sort through the data. This kinda sticking the toes out looking for landmines research is just that. Hopefully with time more data becomes available.

I ended up doing 10 dyno runs at AntiVenom in Tampa tonite on a dyno jet. i'll see if I can figure out a way to post data that shows logs of the runs vs the dyno graph.. time permitting.

To be 100% clear, the runs were performed using BP93 fuel and straight methanol for injection. And this is the first time ever this car has ever been on a dyno. Tuning done by novice(myself) :rolleyes:

First couple pulls without nitrous setting up the boost controller, watching the tuneup, etc the car at 21 PSI made 480 RWHP at 11.3 AFR 23 degree's timing. Three baseline pulls were made all in the 480-500 RWHP range at lower 20's for boost. I cranked the boost up to 25 ish and it netted approx 530 RWHP. At 27 PSI it made 548.5. So as the boost was increased from 20-27 it continually showed gain on the dyno. I really didnt have the intestinal fortitude to run the boost to 30 PSI to see what it would do since the dyno was 60 miles away from home and the pulls were being done at 8 PM.

Now to the nitrous. The pill used was in their charts a 35 HP pill. Bottle pressure was 950. The fuel portion came from the alky system through a solenoid and a fuel jet. I lowered the boost to the original settings which were 20 PSI, then on the first pull the boost jumped to 25 when the button was pressed and the power jumped to 584.7. AFR dropped to 10.8 and zero knock was recorded. I decided to drop one jet size on the fuel and the next pull, it leaned out to 11.3 but picked up 2 degree's of knock and the power dropped of to 576. At that point I made a boost only pull of 27 PSI and it made the 548.5 cleanly.

So the nitrous works. At less boost it made more power than without. The top of the up-pipe froze. Temp difference was only 5 degree's less with nitrous.

At Reynolds on the 132 pass I ran 27 PSI. Thats approx 548 RWHP and 720 approx flywheel given the automatic and non-lockup converter. The 67 is rated at 700 ish so I believe the numbers to be in the ball park. Hitting the button probably jumped the power to the 780 range flywheel..call it instant Q trim :biggrin:

I wanted 600 RWHP but also wanted to drive it home.. i'll play with larger jetting and see where that takes it.

So the question is... what is worse.. running 30-31 PSI without juice or 25 PSI with juice... that is one question I cant answer.

Aside from that.. the guys at the shop were really impressed given its only a 6 banger..

old saying... great dyno day is when you drive there and leave in one piece..

See what I can do to put up the sheets.. And more important see what it does on the spray going down the track. But spraying on a dyno I felt more comfortable.

:wink:
 
Very interesting stuff. I'm assuming that the injection point is in the up pipe from your description. The fuel jet is sized for methanol? Keep going richer on the fuel jet until power drops. Alcohol can go pretty rich and it's much safer that direction also, since there could be distribution problems with the up pipe injection point. It will make more power as you lean it, but as you already found, bad things start happening. You may want to settle for a safer rich setting with less HP. If you encounter missing, your too rich. I see your boost increased even though you were trying to control it to a lower level. That is a real problem when nitrous is run continuously instead of for a fraction of a second in a turbo application. Your pushing more exhaust energy than your wastegate can handle. Either increase the wastegate capacity or turbine A/R or both. Be careful and anticipate the boost level being higher than your target and you should stay out of trouble.
 
razors edge

just one of the graphs I could take a pic of with my cheap dig camera. Still sounded great from my view :biggrin: Great job again razor. Keep her coming for that big gt70 ;)

bmprundaysunday010.jpg

bmprundaysunday008.jpg

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Don, looked like it really like the upper 10 AFR on the juice. When playing the mixing 93 fuel with methanol and then introducing nitrous.. thats a lot of stuff to keep balanced.

Fuel jet is sized for methanol, issue is pressure run through the system. Typically I run in the lower 100's for pressure alky wise. The NX charts stop at 100 for jet sizing.. I didnt run a pressure guage while doing the tests. I have a transducer on the line.. but more monitoring will follow.

Wes.. thanks for the iced up shot of the up-pipe.
 
alky control with a lil juice too

no problem, wish I could have got more pics but the tta was hot lapping like crazy & maybe this will show your little buddy from south florida that the ole girls headgaskets are good to go for more than one pass :biggrin: I will be nice & let you put it in the florida crap talk section.
 
I'm not surprised that you would have to run in the high 10s using 93 as your main fuel. Running pure Meth, I've found that max power occurs at high 12s, low 13s. Similar to where gasoline typically likes to make max power. That is running at the ragged edge though. Especially at the higher boost levels. I richened it to low to mid elevens for safety. Still, that may not be rich enough, judging from recent events. Especially, at peak torque. My O2 sensor is calibrated to read out gasoline ratio numbers. I hope its not confusing you. One thing to pay very close attention to is the rpm points that your experiencing engine knock. Is it mostly occuring at peak torque? Typically, that would be where it occurs in a minor case of engine knock since cylinder pressure is the highest at that point in the torque curve. If so, that is where you should be richening it up and maybe leaning it back out once past that point. In essence de-tuning the engine at the problem points, then bringing the tune up back in at the less problematic points. The A/F ratio should not be a flat line number throughout the power curve. That goes for running straight gasoline too. That's where the beauty of high res fuel maps come in. The high pressure for the alky is very good. Better atomization. I use the nitrous gas flow to cut through the alky fuel flow to further enhance nitrous/fuel mixing. Keep the info coming. Good stuff. I'm finding it very helpful in confirming some of my own findings. Be safe and don't blow it up.
 
Julio

Dude as always you rock, And thanks for posting all of the info on your runs. Can't wait to run a system.
What has been your best run since Reynolds.
Thanks for any and all info and have a super New Year.
Brad :biggrin: :D
 
I was expecting to see the power curve level off and last a bit longer with your cam, seems like it falls off quickly??? I got to looking at one of my dyno pulls with the 212-212 and noticed that the power seemed to level off and stay semi-flat up to ~5000.
 
Actually the HP stays flat from 5k to 6k. The TQ is what falls off. That is typicall with auto's. The screen Wes took a picture of wasnt the whole picture. Still waiting to get the files sent to me from the Dyno shop.

I did dyno101 mistake.. not bring a floppy. I have the sheet from the 548 and 584 pulls i'll snap a pix latter tonite and post it.
 
If you don't mind a quick threadjack, you mentioned a transducer. I have been looking for a nice 0-5v methanol safe pressure transducer for awhile without much luck, got anymore info on yours?
 
Its a Honeywell piece made of stainless steel. I bought it at Newark Electronics.. 0-250 PSI. It was like 140 bucks.. plus the harness(3M) ended up being like 180 total.

If you go and cant find it.. i'll dig up the number for you.

I couldnt locate anything cheaper yet..
 
Yeah, thats the problem..... I'd like to log my pump pressure, but not for 180 bucks :frown:

All I need is up to 150 psi, I've got an M15 but don't really need a nozzle that large yet, so ---> low pressure, 80ish psi. I just don't see why I can't find a decent transducer for 40-50 bucks on ebay,and whenever I find something that looks close it doesn't say it is safe for methanol.........

Thanks for the info, I will definitely check it out if I get rich or desperate :redface:
 
gibby said:
Yeah, thats the problem..... I'd like to log my pump pressure, but not for 180 bucks :frown:

There comes a point.. one has to make the decision how important a specific piece of data is worth.. and act accordingly.

I cant find anything cheaper.. If anyone does.. please post.

Aside from a mechanical guage that can be bought for 20 bucks.
 
Without knowing the exact pressure your using, it would be rather difficult to compute what jet size to use for the fuel side of your nitrous system. I think that is well understood already. Trial and error testing with nitrous can be very costly. Is a high fuel side pressure absolutely necessary with a nitrous/alky injection system? No, it's not. There are a few very important factors that must be considered, though. Manifold design and Injection point location being number one and the nozzle design being next. I can tell I'm going into another long winded deal so I'll cut it short. I have to run to work. I enjoy this stuff. Good exersice for the grey junk.
 
Don, I was looking through my numbers and realized I messed up on the nitrous fuel jetting. I had left my sheet at home and followed the gas jet size of 20 but should of been 23 since it was methanol. That is why when I went to a 19 to raise the 10.8 it knocked a little.

10.8 is fine with me as well.. to answer your pressure question, it has to do with volume. As i still have 93 octane in the fuel tank. So a majority of my fuel comes from the meth kit. To achieve this volume working with the jetting I have, the pressure is adjusted via an electronic controller. the the fuel calcs are followed by the FAST. The nitrous will lean the motor out... next week i'll have the XFI on and work on better control of the activation..

More research to follow..
 
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