No Start (part 2) HELP!!!!!

[thbjcb]

Installed P&P heads and a new cam. Had problems intially with it starting but I had the cam sensor and two plug wires wrong. After I fixed that it started and ran for about 10 minutes and then began sputtering and died. Pulled all of the plugs and they were very wet like it was getting to much fuelor or no spark. Now it will not start but it does fire once in a while. Every time I pull the plugs after trying to start the are wet. Whent through the GM no start flow chart and have confirmed the following

1. I have injector pulse(tested with a noid light)
2. I have spark on plugs 1,3,5 when cranking
3. Coolant temp sensor saying ambiant (40 deg)
4. TPS is reading .43V
5. Fuel pressure was at 40 psi and held there for several minutes after turning the ignition on.

Possible problems?

1. Gas is 1 1/2 years (3gal) old with 2 gal of fresh
2. fowled plugs from them being wet with my intial screw up of the plug wires.

 

[thbjcb]

Opinoins, thoughts, theries

 

[Joe Cancer]

It sounds like the cam sensor is out 180*.Did you confirm that the cam sensor was installed at 25*ATDC on the compression stroke.If it wasn't on the compression stroke the injectors will not fire in the right sequence and it will run like you describe.

 

[thbjcb]

Realized i did not set it 25 TDC but at 0. I rest it with the caspers cam senor tool with stickers that measure 1.45". Now it does not even fire and the new plugs were wet again. My battery is weak and I need to jump with battery charger but it does easily turn over for 2 or 3 seconds or more. Even after the new cam postion setup the instructions show a typical positon and mine seems about 45 deg. different. Still not sure how it started the first time.?


NOW WHAT???????

 

[thbjcb]

I think I will run through the GM flow diagram one more time and see if I missed anything.


Any ideas are beter than nothing. Give whatever you can think of !
I am starting to get a little FRUSTRATED!!!!!!!!!!!!.

 

[Blown&Injected]

Missed part 1 so forgive me if this has been mentioned but:

Re-check the firing order.

Use finger in #1 spark plug to positively ID 25* ATDC on compression stroke.

Recheck all connections and make sure non of the connector pins or any of the wires are messed up.

Go over all the vacuum lines.

Something funny with the EGR?

Maybe the coil, module, or MAF decided to freak out on you?

All the hoses secure from the air filter to the turbo to the IC and back to the TB?

Sure that cam is lined up right? Did anything go funny with the head/cam job? All super clean and good gaskets and torque job? Any stuff in the oil/coolant?

When it ran for 10 minutes, did it run good/smooth or just hang in there?

 

[Lee_Burough]

Look here under troubleshooting. I think you'll find some pages from the shop manual

 

[83ttypecooled]

no start

Hi,
You haven't skipped a beat on the timing chain, have you? Murphy's law, you know.

 

[thbjcb]

I will use the finger test to check for the TDC and check the other connections mentioned. One person asked how it ran whan it started up well....at first it fired rite up and there was some lifter noise. I brought the rpm up to 2500 and it was running there without any problems for the first five minutes and operating temp was coming up. I had to get out of the car to put a spacer in the throttle and it died. Started it up and the next few minutes it started to sputter a little and by the end before it died I had to keep it floored to keep it running. I was able to get it running for a few seconds after that by flooring it during startup. I will post back later tonight with any new findings

 

[thbjcb]

Well I checked everything again. I have fuel, spark, 0 deg in #1 is at TDC. Checked the grounds. Someone asked about the timing chain. When I put it back togather i used the rollermaster double roller so I don't think it should have jumped. Every time I pull the plugs they are wet. So it would almost seem that the spark is not firing at the rite time or the old gas is really that bad. One last thing I noticed was that after cranking the engine I heard a ticking noise coming from one of the valve springs as the engine sat. Stopped after a minute


Remeber I have already been through the GM flow diagram but it lead me to a dead end

Any new Suggestions. ??????????????

 

[thbjcb]

Well I checked everything again. I have fuel, spark, 0 deg in #1 is at TDC. Checked the grounds. Someone asked about the timing chain. When I put it back togather i used the rollermaster double roller so I don't think it should have jumped. Every time I pull the plugs they are wet. So it would almost seem that the spark is not firing at the rite time or the old gas is really that bad. One last thing I noticed was that after cranking the engine I heard a ticking noise coming from one of the valve springs as the engine sat. Stopped after a minute.

Oil is still perfectly clean

Remeber I have already been through the GM flow diagram but it lead me to a dead end

Any new Suggestions. ??????????????

 

[Blown&Injected]

there are lots of dots on the Roll Master - how sure are you about the cam timing?

The thing about that is that lots of the stuff being mentioned here, by me too, would cause trouble all the time - not just after a moment of running but then if it catchs on and the throttle id feathered keeping the engine buzzing, it could slightly mask some issues.

Are you turning the engine over by hand with your finger in the #1 (front left) plug hole while looking at the balancer?

 

[thbjcb]

I followed the directions on the on setting up the timing chain so that the timing was was zero advancement - the directions seemed pretty straight forward. If I was wrong I would not think it would have started the first time. As far as checking #1 pistion for TDC center i bascilly was shinning a flashlight down the spark plug hole and rotating engine. I am not sure how you can tell if its at the top of the compression stroke or the exhaust stroke?

 

[Joe Cancer]

Stick your finger or have an assistant stick his finger over the spark plug hole and when it is on the compression stroke you can feel a puff of air come out of the hole.

 

[Jerryl]

Stick your finger or have an assistant stick his finger over the spark plug hole and when it is on the compression stroke you can feel a puff of air come out of the hole.

What he said.
What I do is use the hose from my compression tester.

1 Screw the compression tester hose in the hole and leave the end of the hose open.
2 With you thump tightly on the open end of the hose, bump the starter (or have someone bump it for you) untill you "JUST" start to feel pressure. That should be the compression stroke.
3 Now, bump it again (just to make sure) ... you are now getting used to the feel of the pressure during the compression stroke.
4 Once you feel the pressure on your thump, rotate the crank with a socket clockwise, ...... untill the timing mark line on the flywheel lines up with the -0- on the degree indicator.
5 Rotate 1.45" PAST that.
6 Set your cam sensor.

Personally, I do not like to stick my hand close to any rotating parts. My "assistant" would do that if I did not have a hose.

PS
Put the sparkplug in the booth/cable and lay it on the engine somehwere. That way you won't take any chances ruining anything in the ignition system, or, get shocked if your hand is in the area.

 

[Blown&Injected]

the finger is the ONLY way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[thbjcb]

I tried the finger test and it was pretty easy to find the compresssion stroke. I then set cam sensor with the caspers cam setting tool. The postion is now exactlly where it was the very first time the engine was running for 10 minutes. So some how I had off for the last couple of days.(second guessing my first setup) So i tried to start it and it kept firing but would not start. Going through the directions with cam setting tool it said at zero TDC the notch in the metal cirlce should be around 3 o clock and at 25deg it should be around 5 o clock . My first one was at around almost five and the 25 deg was at 6 ?????


I tried the cam sensor in two other positons slightly clockwise and counter clock form the correct postion and it definallty did fire very much at all

Things i am going to try next

1. Draining out all the old gas and trying new gas and filter

2. Any other quick ways to test out the bad fuel theory?


ANY OTHER IDEAS??????????????

 

[MIB]

I had the same problem some time ago. I had spark and fuel. I tried to set the cam sensor following the normal procedures. My caspers cam sensor tool would stay on when I moved the cap in either direction. I swapped my cam sensor and the car started .

 

[thbjcb]

I know if rotate it slightly either way the light will go out but thanks for the idea.



Any body with anything else?

Any way to test the bad fuel theory without having to drain the tank or is there an easy way to do this?

 

[salvageV6]

You can drain most of the gas out easily through the schrader valve on the fuel rail with the gray prime wire located near the back of the alternator area.

Should have a single connector on it and not be attached to any other connector.

Put +12 on it off the battery and the fuel pump will run, use a hose off the schrader valve on the fuel rail which should be -4AN fitting I believe to a bucket.

Might have to pull the schrader valve out of the stock rail first if you don't have the proper hose with a plunger in it or the adapter T fitting like most folks use to run a gauge there which gives you a -4AN hose port with no shrader in it.

I'd drain 2-3 gallons out and add 3-5 fresh in.

Did you check for spark on 2-4-6?

Did you try any starting fluid at all to see if it picked up and fired any better with a bit of spray?