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opinions on ultimate bottom end?

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six slinger

New Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
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98
hey guys what are your opinions on ultimate crank,rod, piston combo in a aluminum t/a block? i plan on building a car for mid 9s for now, but in about 3 years i am looking to go deep into the 8s
 
Give Dan at DLS a call. My opinion is to go Billet if you plan on making BIG POWER down the road. You can't go wrong with Dan's stuff.
 
+1 on the billet stuff.

Billet crank: Crower, Scat, Moldex

Rods: Crower, Olivers, Cunningham

Pistons: JEs, Diamonds

Why pay double? Build it once correctly. Why would you want to chance a $3900 block with some China parts. Build the bottom and you can turn it up at a later time.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com
 
hey guys what are your opinions on ultimate crank,rod, piston combo in a aluminum t/a block? i plan on building a car for mid 9s for now, but in about 3 years i am looking to go deep into the 8s

You could save yourself a lot of time and money and buy John Wilde's stage 2 motor. :cool: Check out the link in his signature.
 
Parts mentioned above are as good as it gets but if you detonate......it all blows up the same!:eek: :D
 
hey john i hear forged is stronger than billet? how much did you pay for crank,rods,pistons? thanks brother!!

The forged cranks are stronger not sure about the rods.
The issue with a forged crank is that nobody is making
race forgings these days. Unless you get a Motorsports
Forging and machine it your best bet for a 900 plus hp is a billet crank.
Meaning the Chinese forged cranks are nice but not a strong as a Crower Billet.
I hope that makes sense. My rod recommendation comes from a conversation I had with Ken Duttweiler. He was using Oliver Billet rods on his 2000 plus hp SBCs. He also used them on his V6s.

I bought my motor complete so I don't have individual costs.
Billet Cranks can go for up to $2500 new, Billet Rods ~$1400 and
pistons depend on the manufacture.

I am tired, I hope that made sense...
 
Ive heard some of the BMS casting are not that good:confused: I know Dan Stezo said he would rather use a Eagle rather than a BMS crank. I hoping my Crower Billet crank and Titium rods are the strongest i could get:cool:
 
Mid 8's @3000lbs with a stage 1 and Eagle crank here. No problems yet !:biggrin:

Scott Wile
 
John, all the research I've done has always left me with the opinion that billet cranks are stronger than forgings, mainly because of the superior grain structure. You stated that forgings are stronger. Am I missing something here? How did you come to that conclusion?
 
John, all the research I've done has always left me with the opinion that billet cranks are stronger than forgings, mainly because of the superior grain structure. You stated that forgings are stronger. Am I missing something here? How did you come to that conclusion?

I thought that billet was stronger also.

Didn't Kenny D find out that certain billet rods were stretching and came up with a new design that is sold by Crower (rods)?

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com
 
John, all the research I've done has always left me with the opinion that billet cranks are stronger than forgings, mainly because of the superior grain structure. You stated that forgings are stronger. Am I missing something here? How did you come to that conclusion?

Don, metallurgy textbooks will say that if everything else is the same, same alloy, same final cross section thicknesses, same starting billet block of material, and so on, a forging will be stronger than machining the billet to shape. The forging process deforms the internal grain structure of the metal so the grains "flow" or "wrap" around corners without interruption while cutting metal away puts gaps in the grain structure that can serve as the starting point for cracks. That said, it is almost impossible to get the "everything else the same" part right so you wind up comparing apples and oranges. If proper attention is paid to eliminating stress raisers in the final shape of the machined billet crank (radiusing corners, paying attention to where diameters change, etc), and starting with a high quality billet of metal with no internal inclusions, stresses, or defects, I think a billet crank is probably stronger because my guess is that it is easier to get the shape you want on the throws and counterweights than it is on a forging. Anyway, food for thought.
 
Don, metallurgy textbooks will say that if everything else is the same, same alloy, same final cross section thicknesses, same starting billet block of material, and so on, a forging will be stronger than machining the billet to shape. The forging process deforms the internal grain structure of the metal so the grains "flow" or "wrap" around corners without interruption while cutting metal away puts gaps in the grain structure that can serve as the starting point for cracks. That said, it is almost impossible to get the "everything else the same" part right so you wind up comparing apples and oranges. If proper attention is paid to eliminating stress raisers in the final shape of the machined billet crank (radiusing corners, paying attention to where diameters change, etc), and starting with a high quality billet of metal with no internal inclusions, stresses, or defects, I think a billet crank is probably stronger because my guess is that it is easier to get the shape you want on the throws and counterweights than it is on a forging. Anyway, food for thought.

If you're comparing a simple test bar shape to another, I can see your point. The thing is, with a complicated shape such as a crankshaft and the fact that you still must cut into the grain structure to shape your journals, drill through throws to make oiling passages and such, you're still upsetting the grain structure no matter which way it's flowing. And, can the grain structure be as closely controlled in the forging process of a crankshaft as it can in the making of a billet hunk?

Every resource I've read up on that compared forged crankshafts to billets always made it very clear to me that billets are the stronger choice.
 
The reason that forgings can be stronger is that you can put directionality to the grain structure. A billet is forged in one direction in the raw tubular shape so you get your in built grain direction generally in compression towards the center with a rotary forge. A forged crank can be smashed into the proper shapes so you get the same circular grain in the journals and then more linearly in the arms. For a crank I think either a high quaility forging or a billet is going to be roughly equally tough. Billets are just less overhead since the advent of the CNC machining center so they are more prevelent since you can make just about any crank out of a giving chunk of steel as long as its big and long enough. Forging takes expensive dies on top of the original castings that must be generously oversized to give enough material to mold.
 
Are there any high end racing organizations that are using forgings?

Nascar, Top Fuel, Funny Car, Indy, F1? And if they aren't, I wonder why.
 
I've read the same article. It is interesting. It appears that there are differing opinions even within the crankshaft manufacturing community. I find it interesting that some people find a forging to have better properties with mass manufacturing processes that are much more cost effective than creating a crankshaft from billet, yet the high end performance world ignores the cost effectiveness of a forging and demands billet pieces? These people have a vast amount of experience, and research and development budgets that could support a small country and yet they use billet? I'm sorry, but your arguments for forgings seem to be flawed in my eye.
 
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