parts on the way

[bsdlinux]

Not trying to question your integrity but have you seen or read actuall data that says the ethonal will definately not eat at rubber? Has it been tested on heat with rubber anywhere? I'd be on the other side of the fence as to why you arent seeing it with a stock fuel system and the people with new fuel systems (rubber lines) are seeing it. Seems like a common problem. Once again, dont take my tone the wrong way but I wont be using rubber lines on my car because it's too much of a risk.

You bring up a good point and it is well taken.

I haven't seen any data that shows Ethanol will eat rubber that is "rated for fuel and oil use" and I have not seen this taken place in my own car. I've had the fuel rail off 4 times ( 2 of those changing injectors ) in 2 years looking for corrsosion or any other issues that people have said E85 could cause. You raise a good point and certainly there have been issues with some of the cars, but I'm not going off a gut feeling but rather imperical evidence from my own car and others that have made the switch with so-called stock fuel systems. I'll admit most of those people are from my area or Texas and it seems we have a better additive being used here that is "compatible" with ethanol as it was designed.

The Walbro engineer that I was in contact with over on one of the WRX boards did not see any degredation of fuel rated rubber in lab tests. This incldued fuel line that was from a much older vehicle. There is a member on here that has had a rubber hose in a gatorade bottle full of E-85 for over 2 years, he says it looks good so far no swelling.


Having said that no doubt we have people that have had issues . I believe some of these issues are from just the failure of maintaining the fuel system correctly before the switch. The issue at hand is explained in the links posted above and what I know of chemistry makes perfect sense. Rubber particles will not dissolve in gasoline, apparently the black gunk will.

Like you said they are also seeing this buildup on new low milelage cars . i.e. WRX, Evolution, etc but another guy with the same car isn't; it has to be linked to the additive packages they are using at different distributors.


I'll post a picture of old my 83s with over 10,000 E-85 logged miles on them when I get a chance.

austinibew145 - have you tried to put the tip of one of the injectors in regular pump gas to see if the black gunk dissolves as stated in the thread over on evolutionm.net?? It would be good to try and know that someone on this forum had the same reults. Let us know if you get the chance.

 

[Racetronix]

If that is true then why are new EVOs, WRXs seeing this gunk and others are not? And when I say others I mean some with 10k or so miles on the car are clean as a whistle and the guy with gunk got it in less than 2k.

I have still not seen and report or study that shows Ethanol eats " fuel rate rubber hose" If someone has a link please post it.

Consider contacting an engineer at a hose company like Gates and get some information.
You can also read some SAE articles on the subject.

Cheers

 

[jdpolzin]

You bring up a good point and it is well taken.

I haven't seen any data that shows Ethanol will eat rubber that is "rated for fuel and oil use" and I have not seen this taken place in my own car. I've had the fuel rail off 4 times ( 2 of those changing injectors ) in 2 years looking for corrsosion or any other issues that people have said E85 could cause. You raise a good point and certainly there have been issues with some of the cars, but I'm not going off a gut feeling but rather imperical evidence from my own car and others that have made the switch with so-called stock fuel systems. I'll admit most of those people are from my area or Texas and it seems we have a better additive being used here that is "compatible" with ethanol as it was designed.

The Walbro engineer that I was in contact with over on one of the WRX boards did not see any degredation of fuel rated rubber in lab tests. This incldued fuel line that was from a much older vehicle. There is a member on here that has had a rubber hose in a gatorade bottle full of E-85 for over 2 years, he says it looks good so far no swelling.


Having said that no doubt we have people that have had issues . I believe some of these issues are from just the failure of maintaining the fuel system correctly before the switch. The issue at hand is explained in the links posted above and what I know of chemistry makes perfect sense. Rubber particles will not dissolve in gasoline, apparently the black gunk will.

Like you said they are also seeing this buildup on new low milelage cars . i.e. WRX, Evolution, etc but another guy with the same car isn't; it has to be linked to the additive packages they are using at different distributors.


I'll post a picture of old my 83s with over 10,000 E-85 logged miles on them when I get a chance.

austinibew145 - have you tried to put the tip of one of the injectors in regular pump gas to see if the black gunk dissolves as stated in the thread over on evolutionm.net?? It would be good to try and know that someone on this forum had the same reults. Let us know if you get the chance.

I hear ya. Well I've probably been running E85 longer than most members on this board on my Stage 2 car and it still retains stock fuel lines and a Walboro 340 in the tank. i havent had any problems that have occured with my car yet. Austin and I use the same gas stations. I think the Ethonal eats at rubber thats hot. We all know the structure of rubber is different cold than hot. Hot rubber already wants to melt. Maybe the HOT rubber holds together but the strength of the ethonal sets it just over the edge to slowly melt it in a small small amount?

 

[1outlaw]

Calling Gates or the manufacturer is the right idea. In the meantime here is an elastomer chart for you--problem is knowing exactly what the manufacturer put into the hose or seal;

General Chemical Resistance Guide

Select "ethyl alcohol" in the left box- look in the right for it's reaction/acceptability.

For fun- then select gasoline. Compare the new result to the ethyl one. One can then see what an auto engineer is up against- his choices are limited with gasoline so his choice just might not be the best for the easier one-ethanol. For even more laughs select some of the components of gas- benzine, butane, toluene, etc. When aromatics in gas were higher (1980's) it would have been extremely difficult to select materials.

 

[87GN_70GS]

Or maybe these E85-specific additives are attacking the rubber?

 

[1outlaw]

Or maybe these E85-specific additives are attacking the rubber?

Unlikely since terminal additives amount to 2-5 gal/truckload. While this is plenty enough to end up on an injector, it would not normally be enough to affect fuel system material degredation in such low inclusion rate. Example- look at chart for acetone-- dumping this in your fuel filler (as a few claim to do) with a hose extension to the tank could affect the hose but unlikely if immediately chased by gas to dilute it down to <0.8%. Both time and concentration is important.

 

[austinibew145]

beep.. beep beep..beep... strait from the turbo farm labs we have news about e 85 and the effects on an lines! after removing my injectors and finding all that gunk I decided to do some testing. I cut some spare an line I had, and put it in a beaker of e 85 this is the result.







as you can see the rubber has broke down. there is floater's in the beaker. I took it out and it was very soft i could rip it with my fingers.

 

[jdpolzin]

Another point to make: The E85 broke down the cut areas on the rubber (the areas that the outer rubber seal was broken) before it broke down the actuall formed areas.

BUT....It also disolved the uncut areas, just not as fast.


Heat is also a factor that needs to be determined.


My theory is: The e85 slwly breaks down the rubber, leaving deposits that flow into the injector post filter. Then as the injector sprays into the hot cylinders, it slowly melts and creates a rubbery deposit in the head and on the tip of the injectors.









Now another note, after talking with TA49-WE4 (Shawn) this past week, he said he's no longer having a problem after rebuilding his motor. He said his driven 4500 miles and still no gunk. His set up was using stock (NON AN) lines and he was still seeing the build up. He's thinking he had a bad headgasket (which was verified once he tore his motor down). He's thinking his headgaskets blowing oil into the crankcase and it was re-circulating the oily blowby throw the motor.


I'm wondering if there is too different senerious going on?

 

[gntyDenver]

just vent the tank and your good..

 

[87GN_70GS]

Your lead researcher there looks kinda young...What are his qualifications?

 

[WFO]

I plumbed up my new E85 stuff with Parker 836 pushlok hose.

It has a PKR inner tube and the original material compatibility sheet said it was fine for gasoline,ethanol and methanol. They have since changed the sheets for liability reasons on all pushlok hoses.

When I worked at a Parker distributor we plumbed up methanol burning sprint cars by the dozen,without a single failure. I've also used it on transmission lines oil and coolant lines.

I've got a couple chunks out in the shop,I'd be happy to send you a piece if you want to run it thru your test bench.

Later,Sean

 

[austinibew145]

I soaked my injectors in regular gas to clean them off. it worked great. I let them soak over night most of if was gone I wiped them clean and soaked them one More night. I noticed that all the gunk that came off was laying no the bottom of the glass I soaked them in. it was fine, and kind of goopey.

I decided to soak the an line I had in e85 in gas to see what would happen. I took it out of the e85 and put it in a beaker of regular gasoline. I will follow up on any changes. I decided to redo the first experiment over. when I cut the an line apart, as I did the first time. i noticed it was soft and it tore easy. "I did not do this the first time because, I just wanted to see what would happen if i tossed it in." I decided to check this time so I could reference something. i plan to do this round of testing a little better than the first.

I cut the an line "about 1.5 in long" and i removed the steel braiding. i try-ed to clean it the best i could to remove any small pieces that would fall off. then i placed it in a beaker of regular gasoline.

I also put a small piece of aluminum in the e85. it is triangular and about an inch big on all sides. I took some sand paper and cleaned half just to see any difference.

I do have some pics I can put up later.

 

[ungrave]

austinibew145,

This is a very interesting test on E85's effect on fuel line. There's one thing I think you should consider though. Most of us run our fuel on the inside of our fuel lines rather than the outside. :biggrin: All joking aside, I suggest you get a good length of the fuel line and pour the E85 into it while hanging it from its ends. Like a big U shape of hose. Cap or pinch close the ends and then let the E85 sit on the inside of the hose for how ever long, then pour out the E85 and see your results, checking both the fuel and the inside of the line. Please let us know what you find.

 

[austinibew145]

Ok I can do it. The chunk I put in regular gas caused it to cloud up

 

[austinibew145]

Ok, the hose I put in e85 then regular gasoline is extremely soft. I was wanting to gather some more info on peoples set up. If you are getting the gunk buildup have you ran bolth e85 and regular gas? If you do not have the gunk build up what setup are you running? Fule lines, all e85, mixture of gas and e85, and location of Fule stations you use city/state.
Thank you

 

[leophious]

Areomotive Stealth Fuel cell w/Eliminator pump ( Jegs # 027-18663) and Ramco Performance fuel fuel filter Flomax 300. You get this set up and all your problems are gone if you have -10 lines and modified fuel rails and a good bypass regulator. Weld a 10 fitting on the pass side of the fuel rail and a -8 on the drivers side where the stock regulator was.

 

[jdpolzin]

Areomotive Stealth Fuel cell w/Eliminator pump ( Jegs # 027-18663) and Ramco Performance fuel fuel filter Flomax 300. You get this set up and all your problems are gone if you have -10 lines and modified fuel rails and a good bypass regulator. Weld a 10 fitting on the pass side of the fuel rail and a -8 on the drivers side where the stock regulator was.

We arent questioning our pump or set up, we are questioning the -10AN and -8AN lines we already have.

 

[austinibew145]

well there is a new problem I have encountered this week. I have made some changes to the fuel system. I moved the after filter to the front of the car on rail, and changed the regulator. I drove from northern Ill to alt GA on e85 then changed to 93 oct gas. (I did change chip) when I got into Florida the system started to vapor lock. the car would starve for fuel and die. I would let it sit for 10 min then I could drive for about 20 min. at one point the gas was coming out of the top of the fuel tank. this morning I started at 6:00am and drove 245mi with no problem. the engine was running at 170 in the am and 190-200 during the day

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Might need to confirm your tank vent is ok and even a aftermarket vented gas cap to help out.

 

[austinibew145]

just a bump. I cant wait to tear the engine down this winter to see what kind of crap I have in it. I moved a fuel filter closer to rail. I dont know if it helped. I am thinking I need new lines so I am going to look in to more compadiable lines