Pitfalls of not using a turbo buick machinist?

[Ted]

Long story - I know someone who swears that a good machinist is a good machinist, and it doesn't matter that he has never built a turbo V6 before (or atleast not in many many years).

He is building a 4.1 "291" casting with .030 hypers.

What problems are possible and what are things of special note? The machinist does have the article Mike wrote on how to build a budget 4.1, so he is aware of drilling the top threads on the deck.

Thoughts?
Thanks

 

[Jerryl]

........ I know someone who swears that a good machinist is a good machinist, and it doesn't matter that he has never built a turbo V6 before .......

True but the interpretation is in the word "Good". IMHO, and FWIW, the ability to maintain 0.0002 consistantly to get "main and rod clearances" correctly (Correctly is also open to interpretation ) may make all the difference.
Then there is just simple knowledge "how to measure" for repeatability and accuracy. Then there is knowledge of the TR engine ...... some do's and don'ts.

Not worth rolling the dice again in my opinion. Already educated enough machine shops on my dime(s). :wink:

 

[bison]

I have to agree with this. You could tell them what you want but they still are stuck in their own ways. (an example would be .0025 bearing clearance) which we know that it will have terrible oil pressure. Make sure that everything is machined properly or else. If anyone in the northeast needs to know a good machinist for the buick V-6 pm me.

 

[Ormand]

A good machinist, of any kind, will do a lot of things based on experience, partly because it saves a lot of time. If the machinist has no experience with a Buick V6, but a lot of experience with a chevy V8, he may be misled by his experience to do things that worked on the chevy, but may not be the best things for the Buick. Setting up the oil pump, for example, is different. Setting up the cam bearings to get the best oil flow is different. Lots of little things, that can make a big difference in the way the engine runs.

 

[ttypewe4jim]

I'm not sure who your using or where your from but.... IMO the east coast is sooo full of Buick's that if you ask the locals who they are using there shouldn't be a problem BUT with that being said I have used other shops before when I was in a pinch BUT I gave them the specs I wanted and did the Assembly my self :biggrin: you just need to check there work

Im from the pa area and I use Danny Smith in Camden Nj always have any probely always will But Im curently geting ready to bulid a motor for my limited which Im going to do my self just so I know how to if it blows up it blows up lol

 

[TURBOGTA1]

Been down that road before!!! and it sucked!!!!!!!!
Use a reputable machinist that is well verse in our Buick rebuilds !!!!
Whether you have to spend more, or travel further, in the long run, it will be well worth it. Beleive me.

 

[rodman99999]

Amen to all those replies. Make certain the machinist knows his Buicks, and all their particulars. Then check all the clearances yourself before assembly. !!

 

[Scott Atk]

Instead of the quick and easy, "yeah, that's stupid don't do it" Let's try and make this a really informative thread with lots of good info for the archives.

Here's a couple of quick things that I can think of off the top of my head.

1. The aforementioned bearing clearances on rods and mains.
2. When installing the pistons on the rods they are switched from bank to bank. If you install them all the same you will end up with 3 dots on the piston tops facing forward and 3 facing to the rear.
3. Rear main seal. Instruct machinist to discard the side seals and nails and pressure feed RTV or "the right stuff" into the side seal cavities.
4. The Buick has a "non adjustable" valvetrain. Its vital that all installed heights on the valves are consistent. A sloppy valve job will be obvious versus a small block chevy.
5. Along the same lines, when decking heads and blocks and changing headgasket thicknesses. All these things will change lifter preload. You must measure for pushrod length.
6. And this is one I ran into with a generic machinist. Explain politely what a "rolled fillet" is on the crankshaft and how he shouldn't try and machine it out.

Any More????

 

[VadersV6]

If a machinist is not looking up the proper clearances from the spec book and relying on a gut feel with ANY engine, then he should not be in business. All the things mentioned above are obvious to any engine builder worth anything. There are a great deal of engines out there without an adjustable drivetrain, so getting the valve heights the same should be obvious. A machinist worth a **** will do that on a motor WITH an adjustable drivetrain. Hanging the rods properly is obvious. If you have some guy who hung 3 of the pistons backward, how in the hell can they be in business? Thats like having a machinist who is trying to install the crank backward. You get what you pay for. Dont go with the cheapest guy. Find someone who offers a warranty program for their engines. That warranty forces them to do the job right the first time. Also find someone who has many years of experience building race engines.

 

[Pablo]

While we are on the subject,
Admittedly I haven't done much research on this yet but I'm just now considering building up a long block for my car.

I come from the SBC world and there are plenty of books on engine building, especially those by David Vizard who goes into every last detail.

Are there any Buick specific engine building books out there that I can pick up with this kind of data?

 

[Blown&Injected]

If a machinist is not looking up the proper clearances from the spec book and relying on a gut feel with ANY engine, then he should not be in business. All the things mentioned above are obvious to any engine builder worth anything. There are a great deal of engines out there without an adjustable drivetrain, so getting the valve heights the same should be obvious. A machinist worth a **** will do that on a motor WITH an adjustable drivetrain. Hanging the rods properly is obvious. If you have some guy who hung 3 of the pistons backward, how in the hell can they be in business? Thats like having a machinist who is trying to install the crank backward. You get what you pay for. Dont go with the cheapest guy. Find someone who offers a warranty program for their engines. That warranty forces them to do the job right the first time. Also find someone who has many years of experience building race engines.

AGREED!

And .0025 on the mains and rods will not cause bad oil pressure.
Too many myths out there

 

[Ted]

Good input gents, thanks!

I am aware that a person with experience in building turbo V6 motors would be a must. However the person I am speaking about does not see things that way, so I am trying to get ammo to prove the point.

Heads, not worried about that so much at this point. The main concern is that the bottom end is right. With that being said I guess the idea is having a guy that has done it before so you don't have to give him all the specs; tell him why you want those specs; and check with him all the time to see that stuff is being done right. Then the most fun is telling a machinist how to do his job
They really love that... Then after that they give you a weird look and say they will do it but they are not responsible of it doesn't work out.

 

[turbo buicks]

i was talking to a local machine shop that does good work but when i asked about the buicks specs they said dont worry we have a book here and then mentioned something about chevy 4.3s, hmmmmm. maybe i shouldnt.

 

[Turbo6Smackdown]

trust me... take it to a shop that has done many other TURBO 3.8's. if not, you will pay to have someone do it again.

 

[bsbro]

where to go!!

any one know any good machinist in the michigan, ind- area? or things to tell me current one on stuff.

 

[Jerryl]

......... However the person I am speaking about does not see things that way, so I am trying to get ammo to prove the point.

Don't worry about the person you are speaking off ....... There are many opinions when it comes to building motors but wasting money on labor or parts IS going to be the best teacher in making the decision the next time!
As stated and agreed, machinest often get offended when you ask for specifics on your build-up (Not trying to step on toes), but ......... as far as I am concerned, at that point there are 3 choices;
- Either they KNOW what to do to a TR motor and I don't need to tell them
- They do it the way I want it done since it is "my dime", or .......
- I go find another shop.

 

[Gary Wells]

Long story - I know someone who swears that a good machinist is a good machinist, and it doesn't matter that he has never built a turbo V6 before (or atleast not in many many years).
He is building a 4.1 "291" casting with .030 hypers.
What problems are possible and what are things of special note? The machinist does have the article Mike wrote on how to build a budget 4.1, so he is aware of drilling the top threads on the deck.
Thoughts?Thanks

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A good machinist is not necessarily a good mechanic nor engine builder. And conversly, a good mechanic or engine builder in not necessarily a good machinist. I would no more turn a good machinist loose on my turbo Buick for either engine building or repair, than I would expect to buy a nice Omega watch in the Walmart or K-Mart jewelry section. HTH, and good luck, if that is your motor, you are probably going to need it. I have had 5 turbo Buicks, and I am not just saying this in general, I have learned my lesson the hard and expensive way.

 

[Turbo6Smackdown]

mechanics in michigan

bsbro, you can try asking either mike licht or the guys at aggressive performance in roseville michigan. they both are going to know the good mechanics for tr's.

 

[VadersV6]

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A good machinist is not necessarily a good mechanic nor engine builder. And conversly, a good mechanic or engine builder in not necessarily a good machinist. I would no more turn a good machinist loose on my turbo Buick for either engine building or repair, than I would expect to buy a nice Omega watch in the Walmart or K-Mart jewelry section. HTH, and good luck, if that is your motor, you are probably going to need it. I have had 5 turbo Buicks, and I am not just saying this in general, I have learned my lesson the hard and expensive way.

Huh? Engine builders and engine machinists usually live under the same roof. 9 out of 10 builders have been engine machinists for a long time before they ever stepped into an assembly room. I was machining for probably 4 years before they let me loose in the assembly room. I knew how to build a motor before the machining days, but after learning all I did at the job, its a good thing I didnt assemble many of them. You can only learn so much from a magazine.
Now mechanics are different all together. Mechanics are usually very bad with keeping things clean, so I wouldnt want them anywhere near an open motor. There are some who understand, but most use a shop rag on everything and have dust all over their shop. Plus they use towels and rags to cover an open motor instead of a fresh plastic bag. Synthetic fibers are bad bad bad for bearings.

 

[machinegun]

I have great machinist. First words out of his mouth when I went to pick up my crank and block? "Double check all clearances and bearing installations to make sure I did not miss anything" With that being said off to the garage with mics in hand, (that he let me borrow). 5 years and he has never been wrong. 5 years he always tells me to check. Not the fastes guy in the world but by golly it has always been right. By golly I always check like he tells me to.