Please take this survey...

[MAP]

Greetings Folks,

A newbie to this forum is urgently seeking data about transmissions. Consider if your car meets all of the following criteria, over at least the past 50,000 miles of usage:

1.) Transmission is an automatic and has at least three forward
gears.
2.) Runs 12's or faster in street trim
3.) Runs 11's or faster on the strip
4.) Car is driven primarily on the street (majority not on highway,
however.)
5.) Car weighs at least 3,300 lb with driver
6.) Transmission hasn't been modified over period of usage.
7.) Transmission has performed absolutely flawlessly, and has
received only routine maintenance (fluid and filter.)

If your answer to all of these questions is "yes," then please
respond with the following information:

1.) What kind of transmission do you have (200-4R, for example.)
2.) What converter does it have (dia., approx. stall speed, with
or without lock-up.)
3.) Where did you get your transmssion and converter.
4.) And/or, what salient features does it have which you believe
have contributed to its performance and outstanding
reliability.

Here's my reason for asking: over the past eight years, I've killed ** six ** (now apparently going on seven) 700R-4's and 200-R4's, behind a 500hp - 500ft-lb motor. I've completely lost any faith in these tranny's being able to handle moderate power/torque with any true measure of reliability. But, I'm also hoping beyond hope that some of you may prove me wrong, in which case I'd be extremely grateful to learn from your experience (I suspect this is true for others here as well.)

Thank you very much!

Best,
MAP

 

[WE4]

Map.......

You havent met the right builder yet. I would say, (and I bet DonW, Greg F, and Mike K. will agree), you should easily be able to handle that power level with a 2004r. What are you killing? Lets address that. Tell us what it is that is failing and or breaking.
Also, WHO built these units? With what parts? Let us know.

 

[MAP]

Greetings Bruce,

Thanks for your offer. I'll gather my data and post back, but in the meantime, I'd rather not divert any attention from my original goal to collect real-life field data about these transmissions (or any others, for that matter, which meet the criteria I listed in the survey.)

So please - to one and all - write back with your responses! So far, it's not encouraging to see 40-odd views of this post, with no one writing back positively about the survey. This tells me either no one is interested, or no one has experience which would persuade me to trust any transmission at this point. Surely I'm wrong?! Please write back - thanks!

Best,
MAP

 

[Clay Thompson]

Search the trannie section of this site

The answer is already on the site. Bruce supplies parts that will make 200 4Rs live to nearly 800 HP.

 

[MAP]

Thanks Clay,

But I'm a bit confused - and I'm probably asking an ignorant question - but just where is the answer on this site? As an engineer who is familiar with dealing with GM as a first-tier supplier, and thus with QS9000 et al, please tell me where I can look to get some credible data?

And - what does 800hp mean? Does it mean that the tranny survived a single 1/4-mile pass without failure? Or does it mean that it survived 100,000 miles without any significant compromise? The car aftermarket industry is full of claims "1,000hp this," and "700 hp that," but where's the proof and data to back it up? Are there any universal standards which apply, or any sanctioning bodies which certify such things? My very first 200-4R was built by a company with previous associations to a man having the initials "AC." They claimed that their transmission was certified to be reliable behind a 1,000hp motor. What happened? It lasted two weeks before the converter hub sheared-off, and that behind a weakling 310hp motor.

Consider this wild hypothetical scenario. Suppose GM were coming here to get very heavy-duty 200-4R's. Let me tell you from first-hand experience, that until and unless you provided a veritable mountain of data to prove every claim and specification about the product (with PFMEA's, CpK's, part/process capability studies, ad infinitum,) you'd not even get a hint of attention.

Forgive me for being pessimistic. I know that there are a few outstanding vendors and experts on this site that pour their heart, mind, and soul into building better transmissions - that's why I came here!

But give me some solid data I can sink my teeth into, and I think that I'll not be the only one that benefits here. Telling me only that a tranny can "take 800hp" tells me absolutely nothing. A speaker designed for 10w input power, for instance, can probably handle 500w for a small fraction of a second, so should I presume that I can connect safely to a 250w amplifier, if all the speaker manufacturer chooses to reveal is that it can "take 500w?" (Hmmm... maybe I should put that THM metric 200 back in the car...)

So, to get back to my original request - kindly answer the survey. As time goes by, and as more people read this post (are we up to a 100 views now?) without providing any direct answers to my survey, my hopes are dwindling.

One thought - I presume most people come here when they have tranny problems. Since I'm asking about "success" experiences, maybe I'm posting on the wrong forum? Perhaps I should deliberately "misfile" this in the general forum instead?

Again, apologies for my pessimism. But six dead OD tranny's have taken their toll on my moral.

Best,
MAP

 

[Alky V6]

Six dead trannies. Sounds like a technician problem, not the trans. If someone would like to sponsor me to do some studies at the level that is wanted here, I'm available. Be warned, it will not be cheap. Which is probably why no one has seen such exacting studies. Your talking about load studies over a period of 100,000 miles including X number of subjects. Hopefully, the driving habits of each subject can be monitored thoughout the 100,000 miles time period. At what level of loading do we start at? If we want to cover a wide range of loading we'll need more subjects. I think the only people that could afford such a study is GM. You say a hub snapped. That sounds like either a bad weld or an inferior part (the hub). I would not throw out the whole trans because of an instance that really can happen to any trans at anytime. The only opinions you'll get here are going to be subjective and rather long if you want the level your asking for. If I were you, get some phone numbers together of people that are considered the top builders and give them a ring. They can offer much more in the way of experiences than the single user. And if the builder is forth coming with information, be prepared to be on the phone for awhile. A much more affordable method is to analyze the failures you've had to the 6 units like Bruce was getting at. Is it always the same thing? If so, it starts to point at a weak part or inadequate pressure in terms of a failed friction element. If it's different things your builder is having a hard time with a few different things and you should consider finding a builder with more experience with these units. The 200-4R really only has a couple weak points if everything else is done correctly. And as far as I know, Bruce is addressing those points with some new aftermarket parts hopefully.

 

[WE4]

Maybe you should rewrite post to ask?

Maybe it should read something like "What kind of power are you guys putting thru the 2004r and who built it for you and with what parts?". If it was easier for them to understand what you want maybe more would reply. Even I had to read it 2-3 times.

As far as 100K miles sheesh, Only a few probobly have their cars that long. Mine is still in car with daily abuse. I broke a forward drum on the freeway in Pomona years ago. Since then, 92,000 miles later still going strong.

As far as Clay there.....LOLOLOL..... Ask him how his worked the first time?.. LOLOLOL
..................................But, ask him how it works now.

 

[Clay Thompson]

Well there was an AC of NV and an AC of TX--one, I forget which, has been compared to a taco stand for QC. Don't blame you for being pessimistic, I've bought my share of stuff that failed to deliver.

Convertor hub sheared off--that happened to me behind a 283 just cruising down the interstate. Don Wang may have given you the correct answer but my bet is something else. Probable cause: the convertor support was probably not squared 90 degrees in relation to the back of the stator (rear pump half). To be correct it has to be trued up by chucking the properly installed convertor support in a lathe and back-cutting the stator where it mates with the case. Otherwise, the convertor fights the support until one fails, not pretty. The reason I suggested you search the site the answer is already here, go to this section http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31365 and look under the pump section.

If you want solid data Bruce has done the technical research in a sound scientific manner, click around http://www.ptsnctb.com Bruce has been fixing the 200 4R weak points that GM didn't--with all their big bucks and research. Exact foot pounds in same section as referenced above.

I've had way more than six dead trannies, three in the same week. Most were, to use a computer term, operator error or at least avoidable if I had known more. Two of my failures were caused by a torque converter from a source we have in common, AC. It is highly likely some of yours were also "operator error" and you may not even know it.

As for your reference to GM's need for data, there is no doubt in my mind that most of the "problems" inherent in the 200 4R have been caused by some killer bean counter trying to save a nickel--just count the plastic washers. The main data they are interested in is cheap--don't forget that the era during which this transmission was built designed obsolescence was "in." That madness nearly ruined the big three.

I've researched the GM automatics and the 200 4R is the best choice if you want overdrive. If you want the highest horsepower, try a PowerGlide--if two will do.

No one has filled in your survey but they have tried to answer your questions and give you the names of the right folks with the very limited failure information you have provided. Bruce sells the best aftermarket GM overdrive you are going to get--a 200 4R for $1800. Or, he'll recommend a builder that uses his parts. If your hopes are tied to your survey--dwindle, dwindle dwindle.

 

[ChrisCairns]

>>>I'll give this a shot although I can't meet all your criteria.

1.) Transmission is an automatic and has at least three forward
gears.

Yep...2004R.

2.) Runs 12's or faster in street trim

>>>Has done so....but now it's relegated to daily driving and I took a lot of the go-fast parts off of it.

3.) Runs 11's or faster on the strip

>>>Never did hit the 11's with this particular car.

4.) Car is driven primarily on the street (majority not on highway,
however.)

>>>Totally on street, but sorry, mostly highway.

5.) Car weighs at least 3,300 lb with driver

>>>More...between 3600 and 3700 with driver.

6.) Transmission hasn't been modified over period of usage.

>>>I've owned the car since 125,000 miles. It's now at 210,000 and I don't know previous upkeep or upgrades. But nothing done to it since I"ve owned it.

7.) Transmission has performed absolutely flawlessly, and has
received only routine maintenance (fluid and filter.)

>>>Totally and absolutely flawlessly. And I don't take very good care of this car since I spend all my time on my other cars. I think I changed the fluid and filter when I first got it....8 years ago and again, if I remember correctly, about 3 years ago.

If your answer to all of these questions is "yes," then please
respond with the following information:

1.) What kind of transmission do you have (200-4R, for example.)

>>>Yep.

2.) What converter does it have (dia., approx. stall speed, with
or without lock-up.)

>>>The trans has operated perfectly but I did change the stock (as far as I know) converter about 30,000 miles ago...the lockup clutch(es) went out. It now has another "reworked" 12" D5...that stalls at 2200 at 1 to 2lb of boost. Brakes won't hold any more. This converter came out of another car I have that DID run 11's with this converter ... it would stall closer to 2600 in that car at about, if I remember correctly, around 6 or 7 lbs of boost.

3.) Where did you get your transmssion and converter.

>>>I believe the tranny is original but I can't be sure and the converter as I said previously.

4.) And/or, what salient features does it have which you believe
have contributed to its performance and outstanding
reliability.

Scientifically? Who knows...lol. I don't take very good care of the car overall; I change the engine oil when it's so thick I have a hard time pushing the dipstick back in and the transmission never gives me any trouble so I don't give it any thought. Perhaps it's magic. Or just one of those cars.

 

[MAP]

Greetings all,

Those posts were terrific - I can't thank you enough for the thoughtful responses. Also, If I came across as ranting, apologies - my frustration is directed at a situation, not at a person or company (even if such were the case, it wouldn't be directed at anyone here, certainly.)

DonWG, Bruce, you raise lots of vaild points. Failure history:

1.) 700-4R: leaking converter (TCI)
2.) 700-4R: shift points very strange, rebuilder couldn't correct.
3.) 200-4R: snapped hub (AC of Nevada at the time)
4.) 200-4R: snapped hub (" ")
5.) 200-4R: flare shifts; no first gear (AC of Texas)
6.) 200-4R: pronounced flare shifts, 2-3 and up (AC of Texas)
7.) 200-4R: flare shifts, 2-3 and up (the real AC of Huntington Beach. In all fairness, problem may be correctable without a rebuild - TBD.)

You're also quite right to point-out the difficulties and vagaries about characterizing a transmission "life test." While I'm not privy to this kind of information, I'm sure that the big three (2-1/2?) have a procedure to do this, since they have the kind of R&D budget to cover it. The aftermarket independends tend to have to rely more on real-life success or failure stories for their reliability "R&D," and be smarter up-front about their design/build choices.

But look - that's why I'm here - what better place to collect reliability/performance data than at TB.com? I think the information I'm asking for here can benefit everyone, consumer and builder alike. By asking for "success" rather than "failure" stories, I'm also hoping to bypass any finger-pointing or embarassment for the not-so-good builders. (yes, I know this post will counter that to some extent, but my OD tranny failure history was legitimately questioned.)

In the meantime, let's leave this thread open - so I still encourage everyone - take the survey at the top of the thread!

Thanks and best regards,
MAP

 

[Alky V6]

I think everyone knows how Bruce and I feel about the 200-4R vs the 700-R4. I would like to hear some feedback about the 4L80E. The expense makes it a difficult choice, but does anyone have any knowledge of how they're holding up? Are they worth the cost? Cost versus repair? I'm sorry your bad experiences have left a bad taste in your mouth as far as the 200-4R goes. I feel it's still your best choice.