power plate Question

[Ormand]

20 psi

I quote.
"20 psi of air filling the rear cylinders is the same 20psi filling the front!!"
That is certainly true, but it's also certainly not relevant. In THIS case, cylinders 5 and 6 will get MORE boost than cylinders 1 and 2. The geometry of the doghouse does NOT allow for the same flow to all six cylinders, except maybe at idle. Think about it. The air in the doghouse is NOT still, it is moving pretty fast when the engine is using 500, 600, 700 cfm. This is NOT a static pressure situation. Fluid (air) in motion obeys certain laws, and one of them is the tendency to keep going in one direction. That tendency forces more air to the rear of the doghouse. There may be a pound or more difference between the actual cylinder pressure in the rear cylinders and the front cylinders. SOMEBODY get the EGT data, so the doubters will be SAVED!!! HALELUJAH!! (however you spell that...)

 

[turbosam6]

Hey boostedbug- I had a lot less in my car when I ran that 11.61. And my car WILL bust off an 11.60 on the STREET. With whats in it now, its a 10 second ride, and would have no problem at a car show. Its in perfect condition, and a large chunk of that money was to buy a nice low mile GN, and also a repaint, plus some nice wheels. I like to look nice as well as go fast. Another thing to consider is that is my ONLY 11 second run, and my only 1/4 mile pass all year. Other problems kept coming up, preventing more runs to tune better. Trust me, you'd better have more than an 11.61 to take me now. I know I have a lot more $$$ in my car than most guys do, but it is expensive to try and go fast and be show worthy, plus I have some of the best parts you can buy, which costs a lot. I don't skimp and try and make a Power plate, I spend $60 and buy one. I love my car, and I am grateful to the vendors who support our segment of the hobby, and I spend $$$ with them to further support what they do.

 

[BoostedBug]

Well I went 11.50's on Drag radials so I know if I throw the slicks on her she be in the low 11's high 10's. I can still throw so NOS on her and get it own down in the 10's, but this isn't the point.

I talked with a very knolgeable man today about the Power Plate who runs in the low 9's.

What I was told was the pp worked good for the slower cars but no advatage for cars making power. It was stated that cars in the 13's12's and some high 11's would benifit from it but faster than that it didn't help.

As far as the comment on buying one....I DID! But I am remaking into something I can use...I need a spacer for my little tubo inlet to clear the up pipe so why not make it into one.


These cars are nice and I enjoy my Limited but if it caught fire today and burnt to the ground oh well...I 'll just go back to VW'S.

 

[Race Jace]

there is a reason the plates are so thin. if you add another dimension to the plate you won't ever get it to flow right.

the precision plenum is 5/8" taller than the stock, k/b or acufab plenums for the very reason of clearing large turbo inlet pipes. this extra volume in the plenum allows me to manipulate the air more effectively making this plate flow the best and have the most even distribution of all of the plates i sell. I sell them as a combination to help my customers save a little $

All of my plates are made of aluminum not steel. Just a thought but I don't know if you should attempt to correctly fabricate a plate if you can't tell the difference.....

Hyper thanks for explaining to everyone exactly how our demonstration worked without ever seeing it or really knowing anything about it. Yes that 20psi of manifold pressure is helping fill the front cylinders. If if this was not the case the motor would destroy itself the instant it came under boost. But as Ormand stated, the air flowing through the manifold has a path that the air follows. the power plate manipulates this flow path redirecting it evenly to each cylinder. The airflowing through the manifold has the same path reguardless of the manifold pressure.

Oh yea, I tested back to back runs on my car with and without the plate. I went a tenth and a half faster with the plate so mine and Walt's cars must not be making any power.

sorry, back to who the first car manufacture debate.

 

[BoostedBug]

Originally posted by Race Jace

All of my plates are made of aluminum not steel. Just a thought but I don't know if you should attempt to correctly fabricate a plate if you can't tell the difference.....

Sorry I didn't want to open it so I could re sell it later and I didn't bang it around to find out... But I am sure my machinist can take care of this for me...

 

[Hyper]

"But as Ormand stated, the air flowing through the manifold has a path that the air follows. the power plate manipulates this flow path redirecting it evenly to each cylinder. The airflowing through the manifold has the same path reguardless of the manifold pressure. "

Ahhh.. but is the air really moving that fast? If it was there would not be any boost! There is the present of boost because the air is backed up in the intake manifold. If the air was not backed up there would be no boost, so the air taking a certain path is not the case under pressure.

You plate may work and I again thank you for your inventions, but I dont see it working as everyone thinks it does. Your weedeater test I did not see, but I have had it described to me many times by private email. And like I stated I still stand by that statement. Please dont be upset or mad at me for asking, I would never question it, if I had no doughts, and I hope you understand my reasoning. If I am proved wrong by someone who will dyno test this with the egt's on a dyno I will State that I was wrong and I will take the full flaming for doughting this invention.

After all this has made a good tread and one of the most replied to one's on turbo buick.com

Again I would like to thank you for your work and I hope you or someone does prove me wrong and prove to everyone esle that it does work. Until then we will just watch and wait.

Thanks

 

[Race Jace]

Originally posted by BoostedBug
I have a NEW RJC plate..am I going to put it on my car? NO! Why? I am going to make one out of 3/8" billit aluminum …..

My RJC plate says RJC Racing on the middle part on one side...Look and see but mine is steal and not aluminum...

I didn't want to open it so I could re sell it later..

Sorry after rereading your posts sounds like your's was truely a "steal"

Originally posted by Hyper



If I am proved wrong by someone who will dyno test this with the egt's on a dyno I will State that I was wrong and I will take the full flaming for doughting this invention.

So the 3 independent dyno tests that have been done don't count but the 4th... now that will be convincing.

Originally posted by Hyper

Your weedeater test I did not see,

Ahhh.. but is the air really moving that fast? If it was there would not be any boost! There is the present of boost because the air is backed up in the intake manifold. If the air was not backed up there would be no boost, so the air taking a certain path is not the case under pressure.

ok,ok I get it. As soon as there is boost no air is flowing through the manifold.

I'm not mad or upset.... maybe a little worried now though. Truth is these posts really put a smile on my face.

I am still trying to figure out how i did a weedeater test.

 

[fubar2.5]

Originally posted by The Radius Kid
To be honest,this item has been discussed quite extensively on more than one thread.
The points I've read here were also stated on the previous threads.
The "clone" thing sucks though,whether you believe in the product or not.
Jason put a lot of hard work into this,he doesn't deserve to be ripped off.
Feel free to e-mail me Jason and let me know who is selling these from Canada.
I'd really like to know,especially if he's local to me.

Maybe the same people that sell the girdle.
Give us a hint Jason.

 

[twin 93 svt]

no complaints here!

 

[Ormand]

No Flow?

Hyper, I want you to explain how an engine can run, with NO velocity in the intake system. Man, what are you smoking? The boost exists because the turbo is pumping in more air than the engine would "sweep", at atmospheric pressure. The little six will only handle about 335 cfm, unblown. (at 5000 rpm) It's still only about 335 cfm, blown, but it's much denser air, due to the higher pressure. (600 cfm into the turbo, at 14.7 psia, gives 335 out, at about 12 pounds boost- 26.4 psia) It's a 231 cubic inch engine, every rev it will suck in 115.5 cubic inches of air. More revs, more air. But 335 dfm doesn't get into the engine by standing still!!! The velocity coming through the throttle body will be well over 100 miles/hr. That's enough to "bypass" the front cylinders, which are right below the high speed air flow, and to "ram" the rear cylinders, thus giving a different pressure, front to rear. At idle, there's not much flow, not much velocity, but at idle, the intake is under vacuum, too. My guess is that the power plate doesn't do much of anything at idle.
Bottom line, the velocity of the air at wide open throttle, and high rpm, depends mainly on engine displacement, and the size of the flow path, almost independent of boost

 

[BoostedBug]

I think what Jef was in refernce to was when they did the weadeater blow through test. If htere is nothing there to stop the airflow then yes...the back to cylinders would get more air. But when you put heads on it with valves that open and close you get a constant psi across all cylinders. If a valve open and closes at the same rate then there is only so much air being let in.

Do this test. Block off all the lower intake ports, add pressure to the intake and then take a reading at each port...I bet there is the same amount of pressure on each port. Now if a valve opens and closes like it does with a cam exactly the same on all cylinders wouldn't all of htem have the same pressure entering the cylinders?

An just fyi...Jeff doesn't smoke....lol

 

[Ormand]

STATIC Test...

Try this test. Lock the engine in your Buick so it won't turn over. That will assure that the pressure in all cylinders is the same. How fast will it run? Then, unlock it, let it start, so that it can turn 5000 rpm, and the car will actually be able to move. THEN, it will NOT have the same pressure to all cylinders. The test you suggest does NOT have flow. I don't see why this is so hard to understand. Drive down the road at something near the speed limit, and stick your hand out the window. Feel the pressure of the air on your hand. Now consider that the air flowing through the throttle body is flowing at well above the speed limit- more than 100 mph. THAT pressure is what causes the flow to be uneven.

 

[BoostedBug]

I can see this on a free flowing test but not on a test where there are runners involved directing air to a point. If the Intake was wide open without runners I can see it all be pushed to the back but with runners air is being directed to each cylinder.


I can see your point be revelant to the upper but not to the lower intake.

 

[Ormand]

Runners..

take their flow from the doghouse. The problem is in the doghouse, each runner will not get the same pressure at the runner inlet. To do the test right would require a BIG air compressor. About 600 cfm, at 15 psig. We need more flow capability than a real engine, since we will have intake valves open continuously, and continuous flow to three cylinders. Check the price on a compressor that big! Here's how I believe the test would work. We'll have the set up on just one head, to make things simple, with no engine, just the head flowing free. The other head could be used to block the runners, with the valves closed, or a plate might be used. Anyway, let's hook up the compressor, and supply air, at 15 pounds to the throttle body, and open all three intake valves the same amount. We'll open them gradually, and we'll have a pressure gage in the doghouse, just at the entrance to the first runner, and another tapped in just at the entrance to last runner, at the back of the doghouse. When the valves are closed, the pressure gages will read the same. BUT- as the valves open, the front gage will gradually creep down, in comparison to the rear gage. As the flow volume increases, and velocity increases, the poor doghouse design will affect the distribution. The front of the doghouse, under the throttle body, will be a reduced pressure area, due to the venturi effect of the flow above it. The back of the doghouse, where cylinder 5 (or 6) runner starts, will get increased pressure, due to the ram air effect. The three valves will all be open the same amount, but the port farthest from the throttle body will flow more air. (If we used both heads, it would work the same, but the valves wouldn't be open as far before our compressor ran out of air) THEN, you could adjust the valve openings to equalize flow, and get a custom cam cut, with different lift for each cylinder. OR- you could buy a Power Plate! (I don't have one, by the way. With 175,000 miles on the stock turbo, and transmission, I get nervous when I start to do any mods)

 

[turbosam6]

How in the fu(k do you use a weedeater to test airflow???

I think you mean leafblower or something, but I wouldn't expect any more from people who can't understand how this plate works.

There was a thread awhile back where some guy actually figured up the airspeed on his car. I don't remember the member, or his mods, but he came up with something like 120 mph! Air speed like that will do just as Ormand said, pass the front cylinders and follow the plenum wall down into the rear cylinders, causing uneven air distribution.

In case you think I'm full of sh!t, I work with airflow and cfm measurements all the time at work, and what Jason is saying is absolutely correct. If the openings in the plate were smaller in area than the TB, then there might be some cause for concern.

Hyper, being as you have a 7 second dodge, you probably have more access to a 6 cylinder egt setup, most of us guys are too slow to need it. Faster guys generally are exposed to more high end racing equipment than the rest of us. I'm sure you could find someone to volunteer their car for the test if you could come up with the equipment. And not to sound lame or anything, but its "doubt", not dought.

Boostedbug, the plenum is open, hence the problem. Yes, the intake itself has runners, but the plenum doesn't, and the runners only flow whats directed at them, they can't "scavenge" off each other.

 

[turbosam6]

Man you type fast Ormand! Listen to him guys, he's got it.

 

[BoostedBug]

Originally posted by turbosam6
How in the fu(k do you use a weedeater to test airflow???

I think you mean leafblower or something, but I wouldn't expect any more from people who can't understand how this plate works.

Hyper, being as you have a 7 second dodge, you probably have more access to a 6 cylinder egt setup, most of us guys are too slow to need it. Faster guys generally are exposed to more high end racing equipment than the rest of us. I'm sure you could find someone to volunteer their car for the test if you could come up with the equipment. And not to sound lame or anything, but its "doubt", not dought.

Boostedbug, the plenum is open, hence the problem. Yes, the intake itself has runners, but the plenum doesn't, and the runners only flow whats directed at them, they can't "scavenge" off each other.

LOL....I b sorry missta u's be knowin mo than us's. Give me a break...I give up on this as it won't never be solved...I will just say I doubt it works and go on about my life....


AS far as the upper being open...so what? When it is pressurized the upper will be full of air that is being pushed to the cylinders...

Maybe someone should call GM and thell them that they where complete dunba$$'s and this is the way it should have been done along time ago....

Someone please just kill this thread...Lock it up and throw the key away....

Ormand I appreciate your input and I like discussing it with you but for some of the others we didn't need your smarta$$ comments...

 

[TurboDave]

While there is some, well, interesting theories brought forth here, and a lot of other good discussion.

If it comes to name calling and flame throwing I will lock the thread, make no mistake about it.

 

[strikeeagle]

Important things I've learned from PP threads over the last, several months:

1. Air is not a fluid.
2. There is no pressure loss across a PP.
3. As long as the sum of the open areas in the PP exceeds that of the TB, the PP does not constitute a restriction. This, apparently, is the same principle that applies to exhaust systems. That is, so long as anything aft of the DP is larger than the DP, it has no impact on performance.

 

[Hyper]

yea I run a 1 5/8 down pipe and exhaust, dont need anything bigger since the primarys are small on the header tubes, I cant believe I wasted all that money on that big turbo- could have kept the small one and then the #5and #6 clyinders would not hog up all the air! After all a flat plate does not cause not restriction or turbulance with air hitting it at 120 miles per hour.....LC why did you ever change cars? There is not any reason you could not have pushed that square front regal to 6:25@225?. The air would not cause any problems hitting the front at that speed. Hell it will probally just run around to the back wing and help the down force!