Race Gas or Alky

[ryanv]

I'm trying to decide what is the best option for me right now. I have a stock engine with upgrades, my goals are to touch the 11's, I'm not trying to be greedy yet. I'd like to learn how to maintain my car, tune, and of course have fun. I don't drive a lot all year maybe 1500-2500 miles a year, my thought is if I run race gas that is only one fuel system I have to maintain, if I run Alky its two and from what I've read it seems like the pump should be rebuild every other year.

What are some benifits and disadvantages to both systems?

From the aspect of a none race car, although I like going to the track, is race gas a safe alternative to alky or vise versa.

Also, I've read I need to buy a different 02 sensor for race gas? Is there anything else other than a chip burned for it? Either way I'm buying a new chip and need to make a decision shortly. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[mtbraun]

I'm going through the same decision making process right now so I'll lend you me thoughts. I'm leaning towards mixing race gas with pump gas with a target octane of 100. Like you, I do not have a daily driver and won't go to the track much. I will probalby put on less than 1,500 miles per year, so mixing with race gas makes the most sense to me. I like the comfort of having one less system to maintain, and I don't mind my cost per gallon of operating being a little higher either. If you're not driving much like me mixing leaded race gas with pump gas can help preserve the rather poor quality pump gas we have today.

However there are a ton of guys who run alky with much success. The other alternative I've kicked around is a conversion to E85.

 

[ryanv]

I don't mind either the cost of fuel, in comparison the alky kit/w maf/ chip isn't necessarily cheap. I thought about e85 but my my guess is there will be plenty of parts that will need to be upgraded. Why mix race w/ pump gas? I guess it would be a little cheaper but the more boost you can get the more hp in return. I've read enough success in using Alky I'm just not sure if its where I want to go?

 

[mtbraun]

I was going to mix race gas with pump gas because for my goals I dont' need 110 octane. That could change, obviously!

Updating to E85 isn't all that complicated. Make sure you have a good fuel pump, injectors, and chip from what I understand.

 

[ryanv]

Can you adjust your TT chip for the octane you will be running? I was thinking when I order the TT chip it will be for 110 octane which determines the timing etc. I just need clarification before I order it.

 

[mtbraun]

I don't think so, but better to check with Eric Marshall.

 

[jasjamz]

Yes, you can lower the timing in a Turbo Tweak chip to run pump gas. You can remove fuel at wide open throttle also.

 

[JP112_89]

I will tell you a short story. I use to follow one of the TB greats. He told me to buy a 55 gallon drum of C16 and keep it in the garage. I am sure it was the best route for him.

What's C16, $18-20 a gallon? So I playing around with mixing 112/93 , 110/93 ... started replacing o2 sensors... Na....

Alky is great! Quenches more heat than race gas. Julio will put the swagger back into your Turbo Buick with his knowledge, customer support and alky kit.

Customer service alone, WON me over. Plus, he is great guy!

Joe

 

[TurboDave]

Quenches more heat than race gas???? Well maybe so, but you can run a LOT more boost far more safely with 112-114 octane than you can with alky. When I was racing I would pump the 93 out of the tank at the track, and pour in 10 gallons of 112 "straight up", so that I could safely run 28-29# of boost and the high timing I prefered to run (26+ degrees). Sure it ate O2 sensors, but I ran heated sensors which would get me through better than half a season. I understand that today's Denso sensors are quite durable around race gas, and are quite cheap. For the 500-600 installed price of an alky system I can buy a truck load of Denso sensors.
As far as C16 goes, I never did care for it. 1. It's way more expensive than it's worth, and 2. for some reason my car never liked it. I could run more boost and timing on straight 112 than I ever could with C16.
For pure safety reasons, race gas it the way to go.
As far as tuning in the chip, yes, most (including TT) allow you to tune the chip to race conditions or street conditions. Just keep good notes!!
I ran an Extender chip and Translator Plus back then. All I had to do was dial in the extra timing, TCC lock parameters and Fuel requirements into the Translator for race days. Now I run the Translator Pro and Extender Pro which have GREATLY enhanced the tuning capabilities. No more need for seperate race/street chips.

As for bending race gas with 93 octane, DONT. You'll never get it right, which leaves too much room for mistakes.

 

[bison]

For a single fuel system I'd be running 104 unleaded for your application.

 

[machinegun]

Well here is my input that has served me wll over the years.

My daily driver GN would run 11.70 with a downpipe and hooker exhaust, home made cold air kit, TE-60 reds 108 chip for 009's DIY alky and a reds xp pump. CR42TS plugs in the holes and 21 - 23 lbs of boost depending on weather. This car was driven like this spring summer fall and other than adding DR's for the track nothing else changed. I used 94 sunoco and had zero issues.

My recommendation, pump gas alchy and a chip with some minor supporting upgrades and then drive it. 5 gallon cans of meth are 42 bucks and depending on how much you drop the hammer it will last a good long time

 

[JP112_89]

Quenches more heat than race gas???? Well maybe so, but you can run a LOT more boost far more safely with 112-114 octane than you can with alky.

I guess it all depends on how deep your pockets are... I can get meth at the local sprint car track for $4.50/gallon. I am still tuning @ 25lbs boost with NO issues or broken parts after 3 years. I am not trying to break any records. I fully under the bennys of 104/110/112 race fuel. But DAMN, even 100 unleaded gas is over $8 dollars here

Eric or Bob's chip with Julio's alky kit is hard to beat!!! imo

All are GREAT people and they have done and continue to do, a lot for our community as you do Dave!

Thanks, Joe

 

[mtbraun]

As for bending race gas with 93 octane, DONT. You'll never get it right, which leaves too much room for mistakes.

TurboDave - help me understand where you are coming from. I have a spreadsheet set up in Excel, and using the goal seek function, can easily calculate the proper mix of two different types of fuel to achieve desired octane. To use a simple example, if I want 100 octane by mixing 110 race gas with 90 pump gas, the math is simple and the mix is 50/50. This spreadsheet lets me calcuate proper volumes and mixes based on varying octanes. I guess the trick is if you decide to change the targe octane with a half tank of other junk already in the car, but that's not what I'm doing. Just curious on your thoughts.

 

[mtbraun]

I guess it all depends on how deep your pockets are... I can get meth at the local sprint car track for $4.50/gallon. I am still tuning @ 25lbs boost with NO issues or broken parts after 3 years. I am not trying to break any records. I fully under the bennys of 104/110/112 race fuel. But DAMN, even 100 unleaded gas is over $8 dollars here

Eric or Bob's chip with Julio's alky kit is hard to beat!!! imo

All are GREAT people and they have done and continue to do, a lot for our community as you do Dave!

Thanks, Joe

Keep in mind like the OP said he is only driving a couple thousand miles a year. It's not a cost issue for him (or me for that matter). Even at a pathetic 15 MPG the annual cost differential by mixing or straight up race gas is a few hundred bucks. Hell, we would spend a lot more than that on drag radials in a season.

 

[ryanv]

I just bought 110 for 7.00 a gallon, it's what I have readily available and it's only 10 miles away. I'm thinking which I'll try race gas this summer and see how I like it. I currently have a stock turbo, do I need to order a HD actuator? I'm planning on ordering a TT chip shortly, is there anything else you would recommend?

I guess it all depends on how deep your pockets are... I can get meth at the local sprint car track for $4.50/gallon. I am still tuning @ 25lbs boost with NO issues or broken parts after 3 years. I am not trying to break any records. I fully under the bennys of 104/110/112 race fuel. But DAMN, even 100 unleaded gas is over $8 dollars here

Eric or Bob's chip with Julio's alky kit is hard to beat!!! imo

All are GREAT people and they have done and continue to do, a lot for our community as you do Dave!

Thanks, Joe

 

[Two T's]

like your input turbo dave.

 

[JP112_89]

I just bought 110 for 7.00 a gallon, it's what I have readily available and it's only 10 miles away. I'm thinking which I'll try race gas this summer and see how I like it. I currently have a stock turbo, do I need to order a HD actuator? I'm planning on ordering a TT chip shortly, is there anything else you would recommend?

DO NOT buy a HD actuator for the stock turbo. You should replace your actuator with stock replacement if it's the orginial. You have a wideband to track your air/fuel ratio? If not, your just guessing with the narrowband. Get a wideband on there so there are NO questions... you will know where you are at while you are adding power. Eric sells the AEM wideband.

 

[iwantatta]

I was like you also. Put very few miles on my car per year. I ran race gas for about the first five years. Never had a problem with it and always felt safe. Never ran leaded so never really had any problems with the O2 sensors (ran VP Motorsport 103). Tuning for it was fairly easy as i wasn't looking for pushing it to the limit.

Eventually went to Alchy. While it is nice, there are some drawbacks like you mentioned and for a low mileage car, race gas i believe is just as good an option and in some cases better. The maintenance thing can be a problem. Fuel pumps need to be serviced every few years and you have one more thing to monitor. I know we may say every few years it needs to be replaced but whats to say that its operating at peak performance upto that point without monitoring. Alchy cannot sit in the reservoirs for extended amounts of time, so if your not driving it a lot you need to at least start it and prime it so often. Just one more thing you have to keep in the back of your head. Its really not a set it and forget it system. Where as race gas more or less can be. Tuning for it can be tricky also.

SMC fuel pump failure most likely led to the demise of my subaru as i had to send it in a few times. Systems have been improving over the years but it seems like we are still perfecting it by implementing fail safes and ways to monitor pressure of the alchy pumps (not the silly little test buttons that most kits use to come standard with). There are still some questions on the longevity of the fuel pumps based on mixture (straight meth, 50/50, denatured alcohol, etc.) It takes years to find out this information and knowing what people use.

 

[TurboDave]

TurboDave - help me understand where you are coming from. I have a spreadsheet set up in Excel, and using the goal seek function, can easily calculate the proper mix of two different types of fuel to achieve desired octane. To use a simple example, if I want 100 octane by mixing 110 race gas with 90 pump gas, the math is simple and the mix is 50/50. This spreadsheet lets me calcuate proper volumes and mixes based on varying octanes. I guess the trick is if you decide to change the targe octane with a half tank of other junk already in the car, but that's not what I'm doing. Just curious on your thoughts.

I've seen such spreadsheets, and in theory that works just fine, if......
1. you know how much pump gas is in the tank (no guesswork allowed here). Just because your fuel gauge says 1/2 doesn't mean diddly.
2 what's the mixture of stuff that's already in there. I used to mix mine that way, and after running the tank down to 1/4 or less and refilling with pump gas there's still residual "stuff" left in there. What do you do to get the correct mixture next time, soften the mix? I could still smell the race gas exhaust smell as long as two fillups later! The race gas stays in the tank a LONG time, although being diluted more with each fill.

Too many variables unless you completely empty the tank every time. You realize of course after pumping the tank until it won't pull anymore still leaves just over a gallon of "stuff" left in the bottom. Besides, when I was racing, 100 octane wouldn't do the trick. I pumped the street gas out, and poured in 10 gal. of 114. The gallon that was left in the bottom was of no significance.

 

[ryanv]

I thought the stock actuator was only good to 20lbs or so of boost. Thanks for the clarification. Also, do you think 42.5 lb injectors are enough for my goals of 11's?

DO NOT buy a HD actuator for the stock turbo. You should replace your actuator with stock replacement if it's the orginial. You have a wideband to track your air/fuel ratio? If not, your just guessing with the narrowband. Get a wideband on there so there are NO questions... you will know where you are at while you are adding power. Eric sells the AEM wideband.