Razor strikes again!!!

[4sfed4]

Originally posted by TTA 1387
Larry,
It would have been fun if I had alky on my Spirit R/T I could have gone after even bigger fish than Fox Bodied cars and 4th gen F-Bodies

The thing is.....even with the very crude system on my R/T (nothing like any of the systems that I saw on alkycontrol.com or the like...no fancy speed controller, etc), I am not sure that my car has enough timing to even use it! I am seeing only 11-12 degrees advance at 25 psi boost! And, in steady state roll on runs (say starting in 3rd gear at 2000 rpm and running upto 7300 rpm) on 93 octane, I rarely see any KR. The only time I see it is on gear changes (roughly 3 degrees retard). But, my EGTs are getting up there (1750 or so) so I have been trying this alky/water as a means to drop them a bit. (Race gas also drops them roughly 150 degrees.) Problem is, even though the injectors are maxxed out, the timing appears to be so tame that its bringing EGTs up too much. Id like another 3-5 degrees (no more) advance at 25 psi boost and I think Id be golden with the alcohol. Problem is.....I have no easy way to change the timing curve.)

 

[RobR]

Originally posted by 4sfed4
Id like another 3-5 degrees (no more) advance at 25 psi boost and I think Id be golden with the alcohol. Problem is.....I have no easy way to change the timing curve.)

What about Cindy's new gizmo? I think it lets you control timing +/- 10% or something like that.

I like running less timing but yours is pretty low and like you said, could be the reason for the high EGT's.

 

[smokinHawk]

Question for you Razor, with your progressive controller kit how much more boost are you able to see with the same octane and same timing when everything is dialed in right?

 

[Razor]

The timing and fueling are different when you realize how to maximize performance on methanol. See since methanol burns, you typically pull fuel out of the base curves and have the alky do the work. Same with timing, it would be more beneficial to reduce timing, reduce fueling, run more boost, run higher volumes of alcohol.

So if your car is dialed in 100 percent on 93, and all you do is add alky, you will be able to run at the least 4-5 psi boost adding alcohol not touching anything while still maintaining the same level of knock retard. If you pull timing, play with fueling curves, etc.. then the sky can be the limit. And gains of probably 10 PSI+ over stock assumming the bottom end can handle the power are possible. Without seeing KR.

Every car responds differently to alcohol, some better than others, but there will be a very noticeable improvement hands down using it. Really noticeable.

 

[4sfed4]

Originally posted by TTA 1387
What about Cindy's new gizmo? I think it lets you control timing +/- 10% or something like that.

I like running less timing but yours is pretty low and like you said, could be the reason for the high EGT's.

Yes...her new "TrimCal" allows up to 5 degrees of advance (amongst other things) to be added. The change is global though (i.e. across the board and changes cant be made at rpm specific points to the best of my knowledge.)

The TrimCal would certainly be of benefit to me, but I dont really want to spend another $400 as an appropriate adjective used to describe me when it comes to spending $ on cars might be "thrifty"

 

[4sfed4]

Originally posted by Razor

So if your car is dialed in 100 percent on 93, and all you do is add alky, you will be able to run at the least 4-5 psi boost adding alcohol not touching anything while still maintaining the same level of knock retard. If you pull timing, play with fueling curves, etc.. then the sky can be the limit. And gains of probably 10 PSI+ over stock assumming the bottom end can handle the power are possible. Without seeing KR.

Every car responds differently to alcohol, some better than others, but there will be a very noticeable improvement hands down using it. Really noticeable.

See...thats where I wish my car was "setup" a little better. Right now, I can basically run 25 psi (give or take) with next to no, or no, KR on 93. I would much rather have the car "need" higher octane fuel (or alcohol) at something around 20 psi (i.e. more advance) as that gives me more realistic boost "room". As it is now, to get the full benefits of alcohol, I might need to boost to 30 psi which I really dont want to do!

The last version of my ECU was a 2 bar program and thus timing was very aggressive when I turned the boost up. I would see a spike to 27 degrees, then a taper and hold of about 23 degrees to redline. I would see this at any boost pressure of more than 14. So, at 25 psi, this was very aggressive! Now, I am seeing more than 10 degrees less advance at 25 psi. In reality, I would liek about 5 of those degrees back I think that 23-27 degrees (on my car) even with alot of alky would still be too much. On pure 110 leaded, that timing level still seemed like too much. (It made good power though 406 whp / 467 w ft lb both of those values before 4400 rpm when the head lifted off the block )

What type of timing advance do you guys see on Buicks (I use an OTC 2000 scanner) at say 25 psi boost with a moderate turbo (mines a TO4E 50 / Stage 3 / 0.63)?

 

[turbov6joe]

Julio,
Does your progressive control box scale the alky up and down depending on boost psi? I was at the track last Sunday and had a problem with boost drop off....only when I locked the TCC in 2nd gear did I see it??? What happened was, every time the TCC was manually locked in 2nd, the boost would drop from 24-25 psi to like 6-10 psi and stay there untill I unlocked the TCC. When I unlocked the TCC, the boost would jump right back up to where it was and stay there. Only if I manually lock the TCC right after the 2-3 gear change, or let Eric's chip do it at ~84 mph will the boost stay solid. I think it has something to do with the alky loading up on the 1-2 gear change and dropping the exhaust velocity SO MUCH that it can't keep the turbo spun up to 24-25 psi. When I run race gas only, or spray it, this boost drop thing isn't present. I think it's a combo of: the greater difference in the 1-2 versus the 2-3 gear ratios, the TCC pulling the motor rpm down an additional 600 rpm or so, and the alky spraying like hell, are all contributing to this drop off. That's where your kit comes in. Tell me what you think.

 

[Razor]

Originally posted by turbov6joe
Julio,
Does your progressive control box scale the alky up and down depending on boost psi?

Thats exactly what it does.

Will it solve your problem, Joe this I cant answer. If its alcohol related, yes. I have Eric turning the screws on a chip, should rock on the top end.

Typically when alcohol is set too heavily, the motor surges and feels like its being drowned. Now when your car drops into 2nd, it also hits some timing tables and fuel slots that may add extra fuel, coupled with the alky, cuase your problem. Interesting problem to say the least.

HTH.. glad tp hear your playing with yours as well , aint it fun..

 

[turbov6joe]

Ya know, the motor feels real crisp unless I set the TCC to lock once it hits 2nd gear. In years past I would flip the TCC switch right after the burn out and let it do it's thing in 2 and 3. However, once going to just alky/92, that drop off problem reared its head and I've only locked it either at the VERY end of 2nd, or right after the 2-3 change.
Currently my chip is as follows: 0 to 34 mph (24º) 35 to 56 mph (23º) 57 to ? mph (18.5º) 72% DC @ WOT. After last Sunday Eric is going to lower the fueling in the middle rpm range to help lean it out some...that might help. I think the RPM drop on the 1-2 coupled with the TCC lock is draging the motor/rpm down so much the alky is drowning it like you said. For now though I'm just going to let it lock the TCC itself at 84mph and see what happens.
Eric is also lowering the WOT TCC lock to 79 mph, at 84 mph I'm damn near crossing the last MPH beam and am loosing all that top end charge. The PI #6 pump I have is too loose unless it's locked and is wasting MPH....that's why I shelled out the BIG $$$ for a 5 disc! I think I'll give your progressive controller whack and see if that cures this drop out....sure can't hurt anything other than making me go faster and getting me booted from our track for no rollbar Is your controller compatable with the SMC kit? What mods if any do I need to make? Ahh hell with it, I'll shoot you a call.

 

[RobR]

Joe,
I had the same problem if I locked the converter up early. No power until the rpm came back up with the boost. I also have a multi disc Vig. I was locking it up in 3rd at 5000. Now I just have Eric's chip do it

FWIW, it did this with the Thrasher also. I just think the rpm drops too low to recover.