What are the best or different ways to set up a dry sump oiling system on a stage2 block? Any one have diagrams or pics? What components are necessary and what components are supplementary add ons? This will be on a mostly street car -not an all out race car if that changes anything.
Setting up a stage2 dry sump system
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Squid4life
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- Joined
- Jul 5, 2004
Peterson site has a bunch of diagrams i have been researching from one stage to five.
Drives
I am anxiously awaiting the replies you will get on this post, as i have the same Q's and sounds like same usage goal for the car. I am sure more experts will post up, but from what I understand you have the pump mounted on the front cover area, with a belt driven off the crankshaft via a bolt (long one too, not sure best situation), then a scavenge or pickup to the bottom of the pan. Then from the pump it goes to the oil supply of the block, which I ASSume is on the front pass side. But, there are some setups with multiple scavenge ports going to pan and back of lifter valley. There is also a need for the holding tank or reservoir, and then a vented smaller tank for ventilation. I think most setups I have seen run an inline filter vice a spin somewhere in the system, but hope the pros address this.
I have not even received my SII stuff (153 on center) so have nothing to look at but pics, but am anxiously awaiting my parts as well as info on this post!
Drives
I am anxiously awaiting the replies you will get on this post, as i have the same Q's and sounds like same usage goal for the car. I am sure more experts will post up, but from what I understand you have the pump mounted on the front cover area, with a belt driven off the crankshaft via a bolt (long one too, not sure best situation), then a scavenge or pickup to the bottom of the pan. Then from the pump it goes to the oil supply of the block, which I ASSume is on the front pass side. But, there are some setups with multiple scavenge ports going to pan and back of lifter valley. There is also a need for the holding tank or reservoir, and then a vented smaller tank for ventilation. I think most setups I have seen run an inline filter vice a spin somewhere in the system, but hope the pros address this.
I have not even received my SII stuff (153 on center) so have nothing to look at but pics, but am anxiously awaiting my parts as well as info on this post!
There are several main parts to the dry sump system. Obviously the pump, which can be on passenger side, but is (in my opinion) better on the driver's side so pump won't interfere with the kickout of the oil pan, and the scavenge lines off the pan will be shorter and less expensive. The pump mounts are readily available from Peterson, and Weaver...pretty much anybody has the pump mounts. The tank is a variable for size...meaning for strict race car, a small tank is usually better. Nascar uses a much bigger tank, and they are usually mounted behind driver seat in left rear wheel well area. In most drag race cars, they are mounted at front of motor on motor plate, so the motor can be pulled without taking off all of those AN fittings. Even on a street car, think about the real estate inside the motor compartment and then imagine tightening/loosening -16 fittings..not fun. Most systems use some sort of inline oil filter and they are right before the oil in line at the front of the block. These are readily available through system 1 or whatever your heart desires......make sure the oil lines are adequate. The number of stages are anywhere from 1 to 6....depending on application and your wallet. I have typically ran a 4 stage on my Stage II stuff, with Peterson pump, Stef's tank and System 1 oil filter. They are not cheap but what are the parts in your motor worth?? It is insurance that is well worth the price in my opinion. I have a bunch of pics/parts for sale for stage II stuff.....email me for pics and prices...Also, the lines and fittings themselves are expensive....look at Jegs or summit and price -12 and -16 fittings....adds up quite quickly and don't get surprised half way through. The pressure line from the pump goes out the pressure stage of the pump to the oil filter and then into the motor at front of block. Scavenge lines are usually in the pan, and depending on how many stages, even at back of block.....scavenge to pump and from there to the top of the tank, bottom of tank then feeds the pump.
One of the greatest advantages is never having to start the motor without priming. I always pulled the belt on the first warm up....used a cordless drill and primed the motor before firing. Some guys use the starter motor and turn motor over until oil pressure is on guage....YMMV.
My email is tom.m@jetindustries.net if you want more info.
Thanks,
Tom
Hope this helps.
One of the greatest advantages is never having to start the motor without priming. I always pulled the belt on the first warm up....used a cordless drill and primed the motor before firing. Some guys use the starter motor and turn motor over until oil pressure is on guage....YMMV.
My email is tom.m@jetindustries.net if you want more info.
Thanks,
Tom
Hope this helps.
Matt
Going to a dry sump system is expensive. You will need a custom pan, location to house the oil tank, multiple scanvenge lines, etc, etc. The scavenge lines are either -12 or -16 and the fittings/hoses get up in price.
The main difference with a dry sump vs a wet sump system, is the oil is kept at seperate location from the motor.
Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com
Going to a dry sump system is expensive. You will need a custom pan, location to house the oil tank, multiple scanvenge lines, etc, etc. The scavenge lines are either -12 or -16 and the fittings/hoses get up in price.
The main difference with a dry sump vs a wet sump system, is the oil is kept at seperate location from the motor.
Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com
I'm also looking for answers on this department. Vlzman-s engine needs a dry sump setup, so:
With stock or GN1 heads, I would scavenge from both valve covers. With S2 heads, the drainbacks to lifter valley are huge and one scavenge at the rear of the lifter valley would be sufficent.
In our case with S2 heads, 1 scavenge from the rear of the lifter valley.
With a good oil pan(wet sump type) already, that is set up for Duttweiler pickup with -12 screened output, I see no reason to change it.
However, I'm not confident with just one stage scavenging from the pan and I dont like manifold at the pump input, so a second -12 bung should be fitted. That's sections 2 and 3.
4th section will be pressure.
This is all from what I've read and thought, and I would appreciate input from people, who have actually done it.
With stock or GN1 heads, I would scavenge from both valve covers. With S2 heads, the drainbacks to lifter valley are huge and one scavenge at the rear of the lifter valley would be sufficent.
In our case with S2 heads, 1 scavenge from the rear of the lifter valley.
With a good oil pan(wet sump type) already, that is set up for Duttweiler pickup with -12 screened output, I see no reason to change it.
However, I'm not confident with just one stage scavenging from the pan and I dont like manifold at the pump input, so a second -12 bung should be fitted. That's sections 2 and 3.
4th section will be pressure.
This is all from what I've read and thought, and I would appreciate input from people, who have actually done it.
dr_frankenstein
Mad Scientist
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2008
gee thanks.
i put up a simular post a week ago and nobody really replied. dicks.
I just set up my street engine for drysump.
went the cheapest route possible.
using a 3 stage pump, with just pan ports. with a bracket that allows it to be driven by stock serpentine system.
main reason for dry sump was the need for a clearanced Gear Drive timing cover, and a location for a blower snout support bearing.
this was the cheapest route possible.... and it set me back 1600 bucks.
A.j.
i put up a simular post a week ago and nobody really replied. dicks.
I just set up my street engine for drysump.
went the cheapest route possible.
using a 3 stage pump, with just pan ports. with a bracket that allows it to be driven by stock serpentine system.
main reason for dry sump was the need for a clearanced Gear Drive timing cover, and a location for a blower snout support bearing.
this was the cheapest route possible.... and it set me back 1600 bucks.
A.j.
Squid4life
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2004
Ouch, still $1,600!? Guess I better start saving my pennies. Sorry for no reply on your post, I just paid for my SII the end of last weekend and started doing the research on oiling setups. I didn't know jack last week, and know a tiny bit more now. 
Whose pump did you use?
What kind of pan? Home fab?
No reservoir?
What kind of drive setup? I guess this is part of the confusion for me is the mounting of the pump, and the drive setup. I ASSume a SII front balancer has the 3 bolt holes for attaching the drive mechanism, or something along those lines. Are you using the stock type front cover that is modified, or a SII cover (xxxxx169 I think)? Interested in pics of you could post them/send them.
Whose pump did you use?
What kind of pan? Home fab?
No reservoir?
What kind of drive setup? I guess this is part of the confusion for me is the mounting of the pump, and the drive setup. I ASSume a SII front balancer has the 3 bolt holes for attaching the drive mechanism, or something along those lines. Are you using the stock type front cover that is modified, or a SII cover (xxxxx169 I think)? Interested in pics of you could post them/send them.
dr_frankenstein
Mad Scientist
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2008
Ouch, still $1,600!? Guess I better start saving my pennies. Sorry for no reply on your post, I just paid for my SII the end of last weekend and started doing the research on oiling setups. I didn't know jack last week, and know a tiny bit more now.
Whose pump did you use?
What kind of pan? Home fab?
No reservoir?
What kind of drive setup? I guess this is part of the confusion for me is the mounting of the pump, and the drive setup. I ASSume a SII front balancer has the 3 bolt holes for attaching the drive mechanism, or something along those lines. Are you using the stock type front cover that is modified, or a SII cover (xxxxx169 I think)? Interested in pics of you could post them/send them.
Ha! just poking fun boss, you know how the Doc is. lol
anyways, the lowdown.
pump: Waterman 3 stage. was a reman unit. so it was cheaper, but still 765 bucks. went with 1.25 rotors.
Pan: armstrong engineering cast aluminum pan. offed best ground clearance for my hybrid application. HOWEVER. i was under the impression these pans will no longer be made.
Oil Tank: home fab custom unit that replaces my battery in my hybrid application.
Drive:...............lmao. this is the fun part. I am not entirely sure how its going to work out yet, the stock serpentine belt slips WAY to much to even consider for oil pump use, and since I run a Supercharger I have no room to add another pulley in front of the crank snout
So my plans are to run the pump off of the waterpump, within the stock 86/87 powersteering pumps location. (this is where I had originally made the bracket to fit in hopes of being able to use serpentine belt)
I have been slowly plumbing hardlines with sections of flex, and with all of the fittings, screens, filters, line itself, and the mistakes, have really added up quickly.
drysump is a real pain in the ass for what its worth on a street car, I wouldnt suggest going for it. I ONLY really needed it because of a few reasons,
1, I needed the ground clearance,
2, i needed a stage 2 front cover for my gear drive
3, I eliminated the distributor and had no clearance for factory pump
4, hybrid application.
I could send you a few pics.
A.j.
Squid4life
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2004
Emailed Peterson and got this reply:
James,
A 3 stage pump would be the minimum for any application. The more scavenging stages you have, the more the amount of crankcase pressure that would be evacuated. The more crankcase pressure evacuated, the more horsepower that is freed up. If you have the room, I would go with a 4 stage pump. This way you can have the minimum of 2 scavenge sections in the oil pan and route the third to the lifter valley to help draw more pressure out of the engine especially when you are at the track. Just need to make sure you have at least a mist of oil going through the lifter valley section to insure the pump is lubricated. You can pretty much guarantee that the oil pan sections will get oil since that is where most of the oil ends up anyway. With any pump, you will most likely need to have the valve covers open to exhaust crankcase pressure that the pump cant remove. This bigger pumps can help more in this area but I feel anything bigger pump may be overkill for a street driven vehicle. All pumps scavenge better at higher RPM's, i.e.. at the track.
As far as the oil tank, a 1.5 gallon or 2.0 gallon would suit. Both are 6" diameter, the 2.0 gallon is 19" tall and the 1.5 gallon is 15" tall. We have other tanks that are larger in diameter and smaller in height if the 6" tanks are too tall.
Hope this helps a little. I thought it was good info, but still a tad bit clueless on the physical mounting of the pump and drive unit. Have a general idea, but need to do some more research.
James,
A 3 stage pump would be the minimum for any application. The more scavenging stages you have, the more the amount of crankcase pressure that would be evacuated. The more crankcase pressure evacuated, the more horsepower that is freed up. If you have the room, I would go with a 4 stage pump. This way you can have the minimum of 2 scavenge sections in the oil pan and route the third to the lifter valley to help draw more pressure out of the engine especially when you are at the track. Just need to make sure you have at least a mist of oil going through the lifter valley section to insure the pump is lubricated. You can pretty much guarantee that the oil pan sections will get oil since that is where most of the oil ends up anyway. With any pump, you will most likely need to have the valve covers open to exhaust crankcase pressure that the pump cant remove. This bigger pumps can help more in this area but I feel anything bigger pump may be overkill for a street driven vehicle. All pumps scavenge better at higher RPM's, i.e.. at the track.
As far as the oil tank, a 1.5 gallon or 2.0 gallon would suit. Both are 6" diameter, the 2.0 gallon is 19" tall and the 1.5 gallon is 15" tall. We have other tanks that are larger in diameter and smaller in height if the 6" tanks are too tall.
Hope this helps a little. I thought it was good info, but still a tad bit clueless on the physical mounting of the pump and drive unit. Have a general idea, but need to do some more research.
I would use a cog belt to drive the drysump pump to eliminate any chance of belt slippage. If a belt slips with any other driven accessory, no problem. Having the belt slip on your oil pump is a completely different story.
The above post is correct in the sense that you will need at least a three stage pump. AT LEAST! Unfortunately, typically with stock mounting, there is only room for a 3 stage pump.
When picking a tank, realize that typically a tank is only filled halfway to help with deaeration of the oil. So if you use a 2 gallon tank, you will be running one gallon of oil in the tank. If you plan on running more than 5 quarts of oil in the total system, then you may want to use a larger tank than a 2 gallon. For street use with gasoline, a 5 quart total capacity should be fine.
The above post is correct in the sense that you will need at least a three stage pump. AT LEAST! Unfortunately, typically with stock mounting, there is only room for a 3 stage pump.
When picking a tank, realize that typically a tank is only filled halfway to help with deaeration of the oil. So if you use a 2 gallon tank, you will be running one gallon of oil in the tank. If you plan on running more than 5 quarts of oil in the total system, then you may want to use a larger tank than a 2 gallon. For street use with gasoline, a 5 quart total capacity should be fine.
dr_frankenstein
Mad Scientist
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2008
this is all great info.
but does not really answer the real questions.
honestly, I have found 2 stages to be enough on a street engine depending on the rotor size, have you seen a 1.25 rotor? its huge! and if the big block ford guys are just fine with a single stage then a lowly buick will too.
I mean really, compare it to the stock buick pump. its over kill. the hardest part is ensuring the pump with a single stage will move it out of the pan fast enough.
What I want to know,
What is optimum pump speed?
What is the optimum rotor size? .80? 1? 1.1? 1.25?
Is a direct gravity feed to pump and tank nessacary or may I have a pigtail simply holding the oil in line?
can assumed total volume be consider in terms of line holding volume?
can I eliminate my pump mounted oil pressure regulator and use an external?
is thermostatic oil bypass to the cooler worth the trouble?
answer that.
A.j.
but does not really answer the real questions.
honestly, I have found 2 stages to be enough on a street engine depending on the rotor size, have you seen a 1.25 rotor? its huge! and if the big block ford guys are just fine with a single stage then a lowly buick will too.
I mean really, compare it to the stock buick pump. its over kill. the hardest part is ensuring the pump with a single stage will move it out of the pan fast enough.
What I want to know,
What is optimum pump speed?
What is the optimum rotor size? .80? 1? 1.1? 1.25?
Is a direct gravity feed to pump and tank nessacary or may I have a pigtail simply holding the oil in line?
can assumed total volume be consider in terms of line holding volume?
can I eliminate my pump mounted oil pressure regulator and use an external?
is thermostatic oil bypass to the cooler worth the trouble?
answer that.
A.j.
I run a 1.5 pump section and two 1.25 scavenge sections, along with a 4 vane evac pump. It is not enough.
The scavenge sections are there to do more than just suck up oil. They also control crankcase pressure buildup in a proper drysump arrangement. The more HP, the more sections/size
Answers to your questions:
1) Normally 1/2 crankshaft speed.
2) The section sizes are dependant on the needs of the engine. Consult a drysump company for the answer. I use ARE.
3) The drysump pump should be mounted at least below the oil level in the tank.
4) Total oil capacity includes all volumes in the system.
5) I don't see why not. IIRC some regulate opposite side of the block to where the oil is being fed in. Consult with a drysump expert.
6) The cooler bypass depends on what kind of oil temps your engine creates. If you find you need an oil cooler, then a bypass would be a nice addition.
dr_frankenstein
Mad Scientist
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2008
Nasty Wendy
Perverted Lurker
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
I thought I read somewhere that one of the newer Vette engines uses a dry-sump oiling system. I wonder if some money can be saved by using some of the same components that are used on the Vette.
dr_frankenstein
Mad Scientist
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2008
I removed the Factory Buick Stage 2 brackets from one of my Weavers Bros Pumps,
I also have the mandrel, pulleys and belts. if anybody needs a drive.
for a 4 STAGE pump.
WILL NOT FIT STOCK SERPENTINE SYSTEM
150.00
I also have the mandrel, pulleys and belts. if anybody needs a drive.
for a 4 STAGE pump.
WILL NOT FIT STOCK SERPENTINE SYSTEM
150.00
Squid4life
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2004
Will any of it work with the stock belt setup? Would you mind posting a pic of it? I have yet to see what it all looks like off the motor.
dr_frankenstein
Mad Scientist
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2008
sure I will post a pic when im home.
stock belt setup? like you mean the V belts? it will work with V-belts if you use the early -78-80 alternator bracket and pulleys, but has no provision for AC or power steering
Will NOT fit 80 up non turbo V-belt bracket system.
Will NOT fit 84/85 HA V-belt bracket system .
Will NOT fit 86/87 intercooled Bracket system.
A.j.
One more dumb Q to dry sump specialists: currently I'm using a modified stock style front cover on my stage II engine. I have mounted a pulley on the balancer and run a alternator from it. Water pump is electric. Also I'm running a stock style ignition which means cam sensor... Anyway, I need to build a dry sump setup so...1) If I mounted a oil pump drive on the balancer then how could I run the alternator?
2) Currently cam sensor is sitting on top of the oil pump gear which keeps it steady, if I removed my current setup (Duttweiler pump) then how would it influence the stability of the cam sensor?
thanks advance
2) Currently cam sensor is sitting on top of the oil pump gear which keeps it steady, if I removed my current setup (Duttweiler pump) then how would it influence the stability of the cam sensor?
thanks advance
1) You would add another pulley, which would most likely mean having to possibly reposition an accessory.
2) If the gear mesh is not worn, it should be as good as it's going to get with a chain camdrive and the gearset driving the sensor.
