Sorry union folks, but this is a problem

[UNGN]

Anyone that has gotten a cost of living (inflation) increase of about 2.5 percent a year for 34 years and started about 30K a year would be making about the same.

34 years ago you could buy a house for $30K.

Bad analogy.

 

[turboscott]

I am so glad to see this thread. Sounds weird I know. A couple years ago I was predicting GM would go out of business and most people were calling me crazy. I was talking about our government and how it is not at all for its citizens anymore. It is for the politicians and the millionaires to keep scratching each others backs to help each other get richer and richer.

I went through our government's budget and broke down a lot of the numbers. I put them on a website and people just didn't care. I am glad to see people are starting to care because this is the only way things will begin to change.

Ford is going under as well. This shouldn't be kept just about GM. Ford is in just as bad of shape.

These companies preach "Buy US" cars to try and prey upon people's partiotism but they ship our jobs out of the country, build inferior products but rape us on the price,etc...

They are finally, after a couple of decades of bad decisions, going to see that American people aren't stupid.

The 2008 Presidential election should be fun. Hillary Clinton running against John Kerry for the Democratic ticket ( 2 of the most insincere people on the planet) against Rudy Guliani or whomever the Repulicans scrounge up.

I hope we all make a big difference in this election.

 

[jdpolzin]

Shortly before he retired Alan Greenspan noted that in recent years inflation in the US had been kept in check in large part by cheap foreign labor, not because of any discipline on our part. Think about it. The developing world is working for nothing to maintain OUR lifestyle. And so we should hate them? I don't think so. Will it all come home to roost at some point? You betcha. BUT - show me an American who's wlling to pay even one cent more for something made here. Hell, you'd sooner find a unicorn.

strike

Do you have a unicorn available?? If so, you had better send it my way and i'll split it up between almost every person I work with. I agree that people are not caring enough to spend their money on American made products, which is completely sickening. I am an electrician and I purchase many tool per year. You never want to come onto the jobsite with foriegn made tools. I am proud of this countries heritage. I would never want to become China. Unfortunately our lack of intelligence is becoming our enemy. We need to take pride in this coutnry again.

 

[corsair231]

No Reason to Leave GM

The great-great grandmother, who is the second-oldest woman working at GM, made $74,000 last year cleaning floors and emptying wastebaskets.

At nonunion plants, somebody cleaning offices couldn't dream of making the
$74,000 that Winkel earned last year. Including the pension and Social
Security she also gets, she received $114,000. Delphi Corp. Chief Executive
Steve Miller has said that janitors and landscapers should be paid nonunion
wages.

I agree. Her salary is twice what I make working as a civil servant placing my life in danger every day when I step into a 1,000 man close custody prison facility. That is not counting the Social Security benifits. The pay should reflect the value of the job and not the person. She has reached retirement age but she elected to keep working. Good for her. But for the good of the company and the consumer she should not be paid production wages for a non-production type position just because she refuses to leave. She should have the option of taking the job for what it was worth or working the job she was getting paid for until she could not work it any longer. You could take her salary and hire three janitors for $25,000 a year. Better yet hire one and take the savings and cut the price on their cars. Of course this probably would not happen because the corporate officers would get a bigger bonus.

Winkel loves her job, and she has no intention of accepting a check for
$35,000 from GM to retire.

Why should she? It's only half of her salary for empting waste baskets.

Tens of thousands of hourly workers are expected to take GM up on its
offer, which includes cash payouts of up to $140,000, depending on how many years of service they have with the automaker.

She's been with the company over 30 years and only getting a $35,000 offer. I wonder how long the $140,000 person has been working. Also at 34 years means she was @50 when she was first hired.


As GM lost market share over the years, it couldn't just fire excess
workers, due to the strength of the UAW and the protection it won for its
members in labor contracts

Which is why they are in trouble now and GM vehicles are so expensive compared to others.

Ironically, GM's attrition package comes when Winkel says that workers are
busier then ever, and their numbers are already down considerably from
years past. Years ago, the work was hard. Workers, both men and women, had to lift heavy steel auto parts, Winkel said. But workers could also slack
off or skip out of work, she said. People used to refer to her workplace as
the Las Vegas plant.

Another reason unions contributed to the problem. Once employeed they were almost impossible to fire.

Not anymore.

Good.

Clean, in part, because of the broom she first picked up about 10 years ago
when she switched jobs in the plant.

10 years. Wow as a janitor she has made 3/4 th's of a million dollars in 10 years.
"

Are they hiring? I'll bring my own broom.

 

[no-nos]

Do you have a unicorn available?? If so, you had better send it my way and i'll split it up between almost every person I work with. I agree that people are not caring enough to spend their money on American made products, which is completely sickening. I am an electrician and I purchase many tool per year. You never want to come onto the jobsite with foriegn made tools. I am proud of this countries heritage. I would never want to become China. Unfortunately our lack of intelligence is becoming our enemy. We need to take pride in this coutnry again.[/QUOTE

I am a elevator mechanic and 100% union, and i try to buy american every chance i get, but i don't get the buying tools every year part ( and please i'm not trying to sound like a wise a$$ ) i buy craftsman they come with lifetime warranty, I was an electrician, but that market here was ruined by cheap labor that i will admit.

 

[Pronto]

Bad analogy.

Do the math. A house with the same inflation rate would be worth about the same percent more. The point is her pay from 1972 has gone up with along with the cost of living plus any raises she got from doing a good job or promotions. She didn't just walk in from street a month ago and got a job paying 72k a year as a jantor.
So anyone that has worked a job for a long time and has earned raises and pay is signicantly higher than a new employee should just be sheetcanned for no reason other than their pay scale? Doesn't matter if they have been a great employee, with excellent work habits and skills? That really promots loyalty and desire to do the best job possible.
What would you do if you were sheetcanned only because the boss came in and said we hired a new person to do your job at the 1/2 the pay? Just say, "OK, I shouldn't have been making that much money anyways." ? How would pay your bills?

 

[turboscott]

We shouldn't be debating how much she makes as a janitor. She played the game the way it was designed to be played. She was smart. A job is similar to selling a GN. Some people ask twice what the going rate for a similar car. People rank on the guy ans say he is asking too much. Others jump in and say a car is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Say applies here. Her job is worth $74K a year because she has found someone to give her that much.

Is A-Rod really worth $26 million this year to play baseball? Yep, because someone agreed to give him that much. Maybe they made a bad business decision but he got the money so he is smart.

If someone was going to pay me a $1M a year to dry cars at a car wash then I am smart for convincing the clown to give me that much.


Considering GM losses about $10 billion a 1/4 I don't think this woman leaving is going to make a difference in them staying in business. If GM saved $50K a year by her leaving and hiring some Mexican immigrant to do the job for $12K a year we wouldn't see it on the sticker price of cars.

Most people forget that GM isn't just cars anymore. In fact, their car division isn't even their biggest line of business. Their financial division is their biggest division. GMAC actually makes a profit and the car division losses all the money. So when you see $10 billion losses in a 1/4 just imagine what it would really be if not for GMAC.

Just wait until a lot of their mortgages stop getting paid because all the people that went with ARM's can't make the payments anymore when the interest rates get too high. Say Bye Bye to GM!

 

[UNGN]

Bad analogy.

Do the math. A house with the same inflation rate would be worth about the same percent more. The point is her pay from 1972 has gone up with along with the cost of living plus any raises she got from doing a good job or promotions. She didn't just walk in from street a month ago and got a job paying 72k a year as a jantor.
So anyone that has worked a job for a long time and has earned raises and pay is signicantly higher than a new employee should just be sheetcanned for no reason other than their pay scale? Doesn't matter if they have been a great employee, with excellent work habits and skills? That really promots loyalty and desire to do the best job possible.
What would you do if you were sheetcanned only because the boss came in and said we hired a new person to do your job at the 1/2 the pay? Just say, "OK, I shouldn't have been making that much money anyways." ? How would pay your bills?

Its a bad analogy because in 1972 you could buy a 3 bedroom/2 bath 1600 square foot house for $30K. Today the same house would cost, what $125K?

A janitor (even a union one) would have made $10K to $15K/year in 1972 and not $30K.

If my boss could find someone to do my job for 1/2 what I make, good for him. He has a hard enough time finding people for 20% more than I make.

That's the difference between skills and a lack of skills.

 

[fitz3820]

Considering GM losses about $10 billion a 1/4 I don't think this woman leaving is going to make a difference in them staying in business. If GM saved $50K a year by her leaving and hiring some Mexican immigrant to do the job for $12K a year we wouldn't see it on the sticker price of cars.

Most people forget that GM isn't just cars anymore. In fact, their car division isn't even their biggest line of business. Their financial division is their biggest division. GMAC actually makes a profit and the car division losses all the money. So when you see $10 billion losses in a 1/4 just imagine what it would really be if not for GMAC.

Check the news, GM sold controlling interst of GMAC.

GM lost 10B last YEAR, not in a quarter. GM isn't going anywhere - it will be a different GM but it will NOT go away. Remember they have over 20B in cash. GM still sells more cars/trucks than anyone in the world. It won't be easy - Exec. pay and Union pay must be competitive, quality better etc.

 

[Pronto]

Its a bad analogy because in 1972 you could buy a 3 bedroom/2 bath 1600 square foot house for $30K. Today the same house would cost, what $125K?


Maybe in TEXAS! Around here you can't buy a white trash doublewide for $125k.

 

[turboscott]

Check the news, GM sold controlling interst of GMAC.

GM lost 10B last YEAR, not in a quarter. GM isn't going anywhere - it will be a different GM but it will NOT go away. Remember they have over 20B in cash. GM still sells more cars/trucks than anyone in the world. It won't be easy - Exec. pay and Union pay must be competitive, quality better etc.

My bad, they lost $10.6 billion last year. They must be much better off than I thought. The sale of GMAC hasn't gone through yet based on some articles I read. If they do sell it the articles are saying they are only going to raise $15 billion. So, if they ad that $15 billion to the $20 billion in cash you claim they have that still equals about 10% of how much they have in debt. Last I checked $300 + billion is more than $35 billion.

And, I was saying GMAC was GM's saving grace because they are turning a profit. If they sell then the car division will be really exposed for how much they lose.

They sell more cars/trucks than anyone in the world but Toyota will be passing them in about a year. They lose market share every year. They aren't making as much profit on the cars as they should because they have to virtually give them away to compete with quality cars from Japan and Germany.

 

[Dan Buick Man]

They aren't making as much profit on the cars as they should because they have to virtually give them away to compete with quality cars from Japan and Germany.[/QUOTE]

I wasn't going to respond to the quality rubbish quoted above, however, I realized there may be some people out there who still actually believe this. Quality is the price of entry into the U.S. auto industry. Check this link.

http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story...qs&story=iqsBrand&referer=advice&aff=national

By the way, there are clearly a number of people on this board that ABSOLUTELY HATE GM. Can those who do tell me why? Was it a bad product purchase? Get your a$$ kicked by a GM employe? What is the reason? GM clearly made some garbage in the 80's. I'm just wondering why so many Buick owners absolutely hate the company that made your car.

 

[Pronto]

GM simply doesn't follow through. It's a dry hump. They promise all kinds of good stuff and by the time the car comes to market it's watered down, unexciting and by market sales a flop. I'm no fan of Chrysler but I have to say they at least make an honest effort to make their cars exciting looking and performing.

 

[LSTTYPE]

I dont know why people say that 80s stuff was junk. I see so many ford and chevy trucks still on the road around here. Oldsmobiles from the 80s decade are everywhere it seems. I know that for my brother, his experience with his 2004 trailblazer has been terrible. The engine light is always on, it rattles like its falling apart, its had many recalls, and the engine ticks something awefull. His service has been an absolute nightmare, so he is switching to toyota. Our family has never bought a foreign car until now.

 

[mazdatech78]

Dan Buick Man...go preach your love of GM somewhere else! Face it Ford and GM have been building sh*t for ever...period! I recently left my job as a Mazda tech to do used cars at a Honda/Toyota dealer. Almost every American car that I have to get ready for the lot needs a massive amount of work. Im not talking about old sh*t either, Im talking about 1998-2003 GM cars and trucks that are ready for the junkyard at 60K miles. Either leaking fluids to rebuilding suspensions. Its a total joke. Then I get a Honda/Toyota to get ready for the lot they need a 1/4 of the work of the American products. Jap cars arent perfect but they destroy American cars in quality and fit-and-finish. BTW..I dont care what that survey says, I see this every single day!

P.S. I love my Buick but I have no illusions that it is a quality car. Its fast and fun to drive but its an oil leaking rattle-trap! And if it wasnt a turbo car it would be in the junkyard with all of the other 80's GM crap!

James

 

[TurboTnZ06]

This is what I would do...

I say have two divisions in GM. Who wants to compromise? Man cars and woman cars. Bring back all the good cars from GM's years. Make them from a factory like they were back in the day with upgraded suspension and electronics. Create identical cars such as the 55 chevy & Nomad, a 67 Camaro, 69 Firebird, 66 GTO, 70 Chevelle, 67 Corvette, 1987 GNX. Yeah, I know a work van and heavy duty trucks are needed. SUV's- nope, not gonna make those. You need to haul stuff? Buy a truck. You need to carry four people, buy a 4 door 55 Chevy. Don't like a 55 Chevy- the woman says it is ugly, then go buy a woman car from the woman lot or get a Toyota Prius or VeeDub Bug you flowerchild. I do like the C5/C6 vettes and the CTS-V and XLR-V. I guess keep those as is and maybe a sweet Caddeelac Deville Brougham. No more wierd cross platform stupidity. A cadillac SUV? A Buick SUV? Yeah, that Bravada was an awesome ride back in the day.

Back to the man's cars. If they were made with the exact same sheetmetal lines as the originals, but were made of lightweight composites like the vettes, but shared current day C6 vette type suspensions and drivetrains, as well as 4 cyl econo/hybrid motors...Also need either two or four door options for the Chevelle, GTO and 55 Chevy. I wish we could buy a new car that looked like a 67 Camaro SS with a hybrid econo drivetrain and was lightweight from the aluminim frame and composite skin. Possibly from the dealer I could option out the same car with a 505 hp LS7, then...I'd be all set. How about it GM. Build some great looking stylish cars with updated hardware and also with any engine you want from LS7 in a Honda Oddessy knockoff, then have at it. Want a 55hp econo box Camaro SS, go for it. Everything aluminim, magnesium or composite. Even use small dry cell batteries in every car- standard. Add a fifteen year/150,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty on every car. That's my effn idea. I'm a VP of a software company. GM, you won't hire me because I'll fire too many damn union people and not care that a union is suing because we need to be making enough money to pay them off if we lose the court case anyways.

Woman's cars, well, I apologize beforehand, but....build a pink and purple car that can drive itself (voice nav GPS system with autopilot) so you can put on makeup from the makeup mirror that comes down out of the roof while the steering wheel collapses into the dash board. Wait, why not just get rid of the wheels and accelerator and just have an emergency brake and joystick. The center console is a frickin cooler with treats and drinks for the kids. Oh,it has a huge trunk and built in child seats and wash down hose so you can simply hose out the back seat of the mess made back there by who know what aliens possessed the kids...

Oh, and don't try to build a ricer car. It isn't from Japan, so don't try. You are GM. Stick to classic and well designed lines. For every ricer there is a guy who wants a 67 Camaro with a 454 ramjet ZL1 T56 cruiser...

 

[turboscott]

Dan Buick Man,

That survey was about the first 90 days of ownership. For more people that is about 4500 miles. That isn't even enough mileage to break in the car. If you did a survey after the cars hit 100K miles the Japanese cars would blow them away.

I bought a 95 Z28 convertible a couple years ago with 28K miles. Within 30 days the rear main seal was leaking. The roof leaked in a light rain. It had some other issues I can't remember right now. Let's just say I lost $6K when I got rid of the car a year later because of all the work it needed.

I graduated from college and went to work for Enterprise Rent-A-Car back in 1997. We had all kinds of cars and there was one constant, the American cars were always in the shop. They all took the same abuse and the Nissan's and Toyota's rarely saw the inside of a shop. We had GM cars that were in the shop with a couple thousand miles and continued on until they were taken off fleet.

When I worked for Enterprise we rented a car to a lady who had bought a new Vette. She had the rental for over a year because she bought an automatic that had some new fancy (at that time) electronic tranny. The dealership replaced it 3 times and they could never get it working right. Of course GM paid for the rental. Finally they ended up giving her her money back.

I agree with Mazdatech78. The turbo Buick's are a blast to drive but they are crap quality from the paint on down and if they didn't have turbos they'd be in the junkyards along with the rest of the regular Regals.