Stage 2 Twin Turbo
- Thread starter Luckycrash
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Here is something else to consider. If you put out 800 HP at the motor that equals roughly 650 to the wheels. If you do reach those numbers you will have a sold ride on your hands. Be careful. Going fast becomes very easy. Being able to haul it back down before the road ends can be a biotch!
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- Joined
- May 28, 2001
- Messages
- 2,530
Wild ride.
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GARY HARVEY
Member
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- Aug 17, 2001
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- 444
$$$
I continue to be amazed at the amount of funding it takes to put one of these together.
Like Reggie said, think about the other stuff too, because if you don't... be prepared.
At least have your life ins. paid up.
Lets see, last year alone..
TH400, Flex Plate, Converter, Drive Shaft, Ford 9" GBody style Moser with ALL the trick pieces,
fab on the chassis to keep it in place and
I haven't plumbed the brakes yet,
upper and lower adjustable links, sway bar..
I've decided to have my head examined...:frown:
I continue to be amazed at the amount of funding it takes to put one of these together.
Like Reggie said, think about the other stuff too, because if you don't... be prepared.
At least have your life ins. paid up.
Lets see, last year alone..
TH400, Flex Plate, Converter, Drive Shaft, Ford 9" GBody style Moser with ALL the trick pieces,
fab on the chassis to keep it in place and
I haven't plumbed the brakes yet,
upper and lower adjustable links, sway bar..
I've decided to have my head examined...:frown:
My street car is just now tuned and running to where I can feel and realize the power at my foot... Depending on what you're doing, or who you're doing it against 650+ on the street is nutty! What can I say, I'm nuts too, just be sure to budget for brakes! :wink:
I usually try to stay out of discussion like this but I just cant seem to help myself. This is the second thread I've seen with a new guy asking how to make a 1000hp and getting his teeth kicked in for being "to cheap" and everyone insisting he use the latest and greatest TB.com superhero engine builder they know and love. What's the matter can't anyone just give out good advise on this board anymore
I would say Mac is a little optimistic in $7-8k for a motor but he is right shopping around can get you a good deal. Case and point I tried selling this used up junk that nobody wanted and I couldn't give it away
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/pa...-2-gn1-head-motor-proven-8-sec-tso-combo.html
That same motor is still one of the fastest stock style head Buick motors ever built and I would wager it had more 165+mph passes on it than any other out there.
Making 800hp isn't that difficult and even up to 1000hp is still relatively easy to accomplish with a Buick V6. IMO Going to an LSx based motor at this point is foolish and will end up costing the same if not more. The LSx parts are easier to find and sometimes cheaper but you will still have to buy quality engine parts which are not cheap no matter what you are building AND you will have extra fabrication costs that will likely offset any savings. If you have good mechanical knowledge and some fabrication skills here is my best UNBIASED advise for the do it yourself diehard hot rodder out there that still likes to get his hands dirty:
1. Find a good machinist. I have used several over the years. I would avoid opinionated egotistical "Buick Gods" that will rape your wallet. Straight is straight, round is round and a thou is a thou no matter what planet you live on. There are a lot of reputable builders on this board but I would shop around and talk to a bunch first. Find someone you can work with and who is willing to work with you and not just sell you a "package".
2. If you want to make 1000 hp buy and run a turbo capable of making 1200hp.
3. Forget the 109 block crap over 750hp, find a good S2 block. The stronger ones are on center and most of the off centers are older and really tough to find in decent shape. $2500-$3000 should find you a decent block. I would shy away from something welded and a bore over 4.040 but I wouldnt be afraid of a sleeve if the rest of the block is nice and it was done right. $3k should get you a nice block with no sleeves and a bore 4.020 and under.
At the $3k mark the TA block is something to consider. The additional cost is sometimes worth it for something that can easily be repaired. Plus if you go with a TA you can get an off center which can save some aggravation if you plan to use all the factory components (which you can still do with an oncenter just more work). The block will be your most expensive purchase make it a good one it is the foundation for everything you do from there.
4. Cranks. This will probably be the second most expensive single piece you will buy. Find a nice one. Forgings: the Buick Motorsports BMS that came as a raw forging and many different companies ground them Moldex being one of the more popular. This is probably the best crank to find for the $$. Most say they are good to 1200hp and I agree but I took a 10/10 one way past that mark without any issues. I cant say what the chinese forgings will hold up to but I wouldnt be afraid of them up to 1000hp. They too sometimes need extra attention as far as machining them so be careful and check everything.
A new Crower billet is the way to go IMO if it is in the budget. TA has them on the shelf. If you call Crower direct (especially at the end of the year) you sometimes can get a better deal BUT I would make certain you know what you are ordering as it will be a custom piece!! A new Crower billet is in the $2500 range. There are some decent used billets out there. Some of the roundy round stuff can be rough and has had to much material taken out for a really high HP piece but up to 1000hp you should be fine. f there is a chance you plan to push the motor beyond 1000hp I would buy a new Crower and be done. If not shop around on the boards and maybe even consider one of the chinese pieces.
5. Rods: Buy new buy the crowers or olivers. STAY AWAY from Carillos and anything H-beam (which is the chinese stuff) over 750hp. You sometimes can find 6.5" Crowers, Cunninghams, or Olivers but by the time you rebush them resize them replace hardware etc you are approaching new prices. Plus most used Rods are 6.5" since that is what the roundy round guys liked to use. You may be buying a rod with several 1000 miles of track time or one that has been sitting on the shelf you will never know. You are better off with a 6.300 length rod as you will be able to build a stronger piston. The motor above would still be running today if I had new 6.300 rods in it instead of used 6.500 rods.
6. Pistons: I like J&E and CP's there are others. I had a really bad experience with Diamond. This is one place you want to find a machinist who knows how to spec a severe duty piston for a turbo application. Remember you are building a piston for a 1000hp motor that has 2 less cylinders so that piston will see more severe pressures and heat than a V8 piston would. Use the biggest baddest pins you can find and don't worry about reciprocating weight. I believe I had 220 wall 927 pins and have ruined most all others smaller than that.
7.Camshaft: Lots of mystery here lol. Billet solid roller is your only choice IMO and you will need some heavy springs pressure to go with it. I like wide LSA and longer duration than most. Personally I would call Lonnie Diers and if he isnt doing that stuff anymore I would call Kip Asplund. A lot their designs came from R&D work Lonnie and I did on an engine dyno a few years back and with experimenting with different designs in TSM and TSO motors.
There are few other choices out there and at 1000hp you will probably be alright with some of the more popular grinds available. Figure out your trap RPM for the MPH you want to run with about 10% conv slip and cam and gear accordingly from there. There is more to it than that but that is a good place to start. If you are going to error on the cam error on the small side.
8. Heads: I like stock style and see no reason to run S2's. The S2 heads were not designed for what we are doing with these motors and they require a significant amount of fabrication to make them work. Champion and TA performance are your choices. The Champions are a little less expensive and at 1000hp you will see little to no difference in the two. STAY away from earlier champions I would only buy castings from the last two years and they look noticeably different with extra material cast in the webbing.
If you go with Champion there are several vendors but I would call them direct. If going with TA I would call Kip Asplund or Nick Micale (azgn) plus they both can help spec a cam for the heads and your combo. For a complete set of heads new with rockers hardware pushrods etc you will be North of $4k new. If you shop around you can sometimes find deals.
Champion has a real nice intake if you are running an on center. If you have an off center you can get away with a stocker BUT by the time you are done modifying it you would probably be better off with the champion. Fully ported they are $1000. I ran a 70mm TB to 171mph.
9. Headers: If you want twins get busy with a tig torch as you will be fabricating everything. If you want to run a single get a used set of ATR's and modify them for whatever turbo you plan to run. The larger turbos will require you to cut the end of the header apart to relocate the turbo so it clears everything.
10. Trans/conv. Call Lonnie Diers. He can build a TH400 that'll live to 1200hp fairly reasonable. Once you go beyond 1200hp with a TH400 it gets pretty expensive but under that is pretty cheap. The TQ conv is the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT PART YOU WILL BUY FOR YOUR CAR. Nothing will affect the cars performance more than the TQ conv so find someone you can work with it may take some trial and error. I would also consider using whoever your trans builder recommends.
There is my best top 10 advise for a 1000hp setup, based strictly on my opinion and experience. Some may agree others may not that is fine. I would say motor alone on a budget shopping for deals can be built in the $10k range with a top notch piece in the $15-18k range. If you get it done for $10k (which'll take time and searching) you can probably get everything done with in the $20k budget but you will be doing most of the work yourself and that is providing you already have the car and a lot of the basic safety stuff in place like a roll cage, rims tires etc.
Good Luck I hope this was informative.
Doing some research and came across this gem -- easily one of the best posts on turbobuick.com. Great info Chris.
TR Custom Parts
Mark Hueffman - Owner
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
- Messages
- 12,709
Ancient thread but anyone looking to twin turbo a 109 block could use these to get started.
http://buickgn.com/headerstwinturbo.htm
http://buickgn.com/headerstwinturbo.htm
Ancient thread but anyone looking to twin turbo a 109 block could use these to get started.
http://buickgn.com/headerstwinturbo.htm
So tempting....
Do you currently have 80lb injectors on there now? Is that going to be enough. That is a super nice setup. Once we start getting more #'s on hp and torque and the reliability is there, you can count on more twins popping up. I got to know how it runs!
hemi8
Goin Sideways
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- Jun 6, 2001
- Messages
- 1,009
Twins on a 109 equals:
TR Custom Parts
Mark Hueffman - Owner
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
- Messages
- 12,709
Nicely done!
