Stalling Issue - Any Calibration Ideas?

mgmshar

Active Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2002
I'll try to keep this as short and informative as I can...

The car:
Stock LC2 engine
TA-49
57-lb high-impedance injectors
Other usual bolt-on's (fuel pump, THDP, FMIC, etc.)
-if you need to know more information, please ask.

I am running a T+ with a 3-inch LT1 MAF. The chip is an Extender Extreme Rev. F with some custom tweaks by me (mostly WOT fueling, boost control, and things like that). Other than playing with idle speed in an attempt to fix this, I've done nothing with idle control.

Last year, I was running a re-stalled D5 converter (i.e. a heavy one). Over the winter, I upgraded to a 9-inch converter (Mike Ridings) that is much lighter. Prior to this past winter, if I would stab the throttle and then let-off, the engine would almost stall as the car came back down to idle. Now, with the lighter converter, the engine will stall when it comes back down to idle. The stalling is very repeatable - I can make it stall at will by simply stabbing the throttle and then letting off. It will also sometimes stall when I'm just coming to a stop at a traffic light or something.

Here's the rub: I recently had to pass emissions here in Indiana, so I disconnected the T+ and put a stock MAF and catalytic converter back into the car. I also took a 1986 stock chip, changed to injector parameters to match my 57's, and ran it in the car (the goal was to run the EGR valve in a stock way). With these changes, the car did not stall at all (and it passed emissions with flying colors). After passing emissions, I changed everything back (3-inch MAF, T+, Extender Rev. F, and removed the cat). Sure enough, the stalling problem came back.

Since that time, I've changed the MAF sensor to a different 3-inch MAF - no change. Along the way I also changed out the coil pack and module - no change. I tried playing with idle speed - raising it a bit did help but did not solve the problem. I also re-adjusted my IAC and checked all of the usual standard stuff - don't see anything amiss. When I look at DS results of a stall, I can see the MAF reading fluttering up and down as the turbo spools down. During that time, the O2 sensor reads very lean (less than .1 volts), and stays there all the way down until just before the stall. As the engine RPM's drop, the IAC does try to open, but by then it's usually too late to save it.

Any ideas on how to get around this? For the life of me, I can't figure out why a stock chip would handle this better than a good Extender chip... Has anyone heard of a T+ causing this problem?

All ideas appreciated,
 
it is probably a combination of Converter weight/inertia and some MAF backflow. The Stock MAF has that funnel inside it, and does not read much backflow air.

What intercooler do you have?

you can look at the throttle follower rate, raising it helps with the lighter converters (addresses 68E 68F and 69E I think)

Can you log the occurrance? if so, watch LV8

B
 
I have a CAS V2 FMIC. Maybe having all of that volume behind the turbo isn't helping. With my combination (TA49, CAS V2, very free flowing exhaust, relatively loose converter), my turbo spools very quickly. When I stab the throttle for less than a second and then let off, the turbo flutters for more than a second because it had already spooled quite a bit.

I'm currently using a check valve for spool control - maybe I could get rid of that to slow-down the turbo spool at part throttle?

I did try a combination of raising idle speed and increasing the IAC follower values at 68E, 68F, and 690. (I didn't mention the IAC follower change in my previous post - wasn't sure how "secret" that was). Doing the above did help the problem, but certainly didn't eliminate it.

I have several logs of the occurence. From memory (I'm at work wasting company time right now), I recall the MAF reading boucing up and down about every two or three frames in DS (which I assume is the turbo fluttering). I can't remember what LV8 was doing during the decel, but I do remember it increasing a lot just as the car was stalling.

I've run a 3-inch MAF with a screen and without a screen - didn't make a difference. Maybe I need to weld a funnel inside of one? :eek:

I thought the Extender Rev. F had some anti-stall code in it - anything there I can tune?

Again, any thoughts on other things to try are appreciated.

Regards,
 
the IAC throttle follower was super secret in 1990, not so much any more

LV8 is MAF/RPM, and really shows the symptom.

In this era of fast spooling turbos, the MAF backflow question is becoming more and more prevalent. I think some chip development may be helpful here.

The anti-stall stuff in the extender is there for drop-throttle from a brake torque (like the burnout) and prevents the rich stall-out from big injectors. Although you scenario is similar, the code in the extender requires a lot of throttle to enable it. We could play with its parameters as an experiment.

hit me up on email and we can get into the super-secret stuff.

You don't have a PowerLogger yet? I'm disappointed.... :)

Bob
 
What about the DFCO setting in parameter 9 in your chip?

DFCO Delay = 8, Fan Race Mode = 4, TCC: 45=0, 50=1, 55=2, 60=3 (choose) Add numbers and program into Parameter 9
 
just puttering around I don't think his DFCO would be triggering. But thats a good thought also.

B
 
...I've tried this with DFCO delay enabled and disabled. Didn't make a difference. DFCO is not being triggered. When I "stab the throttle" and then let-off, I'm reachin TPS values of maybe 1.9 volts, then letting off. The car accelerates to maybe 5 or so mph, then stalls before it coasts back down to zero.

Your comment on the anti-stall code requiring heavy throttle to activate makes sense. The few times I've hit the throttle really hard and then let-off (in neutral and in drive), the car doesn't seem to stall. I'll double-check this over the weekend. Maybe there is something there that can be tweaked for lighter throttle applications...

The PowerLogger looks like fun, but I've already got a lot of money and time invested in DS and the laptop that goes with it. Besides, if I bought a PowerLogger, I would really miss Windows 98! I'm still toying with the idea of converting to a blow-through MAF or Tpro (get rid of the MAF), but for now my time is somewhat limited. With the T+ and 3-inch MAF, I've gone 119mph on a stock engine and TA49 with unleaded fuel. It's not going to get much faster with this hardware regardless of what MAF or logger I run.

I'll shoot you an email when I'm back at home this weekend. If you have any other tidbits of wisdom before then, I'm all ears.

Thanks,
 
we can take a look deeper into it and perhaps reduce the thresholds for the antistall routine.

PL will run on Windows98SE.

But, budgets are budgets.

Since I started running the Pro, I hate switching back to MAF on those times I need to for development. Just one of those things...

Thats really moving for a TA49 car. There are days I miss the smaller turbos....

Bob
 
Bob, I noticed that the number of drive and neutral loops in 68E and 68F are set for 37.5 miliseconds, and that 69E throttle follower pid enable is set for 1500 miliseconds.

Wonder what kind of adjustments in these might help mgmshar in this instance?
 
...as I said above, I tried increasing the IAC loop values, and it was "directionally correct", meaning it helped the problem. However, it did not cure it. Thinking back to my DS files of the event, the IAC was still open to around 60+ steps and starting to re-climb at the moment the engine stalled (at drive-idle, the IAC was sitting around 20-25 steps, as I recall). Slowing the IAC ramp-down rate helps somewhat, but it doesn't cure it.

Regarding "smaller turbos" - yep, still love 'em. Quick spool on the street, decent times at the drag strip if tuned correctly. Just gotta get around some of these characteristic drivability problems.

I think getting around the MAF signal fluttering due to the turbo fluttering is probably "the cure". My best guess, anyway.

Thanks,
 
the first thing to do is see how sensitive it is. How much do you need to squeeze the throttle and then how far you have to drop it before the backflow becomes noticeable.

Then we devise a strategy to prevent the hiccups.


Bob
 
... good question. Let me work on that a bit this weekend and early next week.

My turbo backflows a lot, but it only causes problems when I completely release the throttle (i.e. stalling or big dip in RPM's). Even when I'm transitioning from slowly accelerating to throttle-off, I can hear the turbo lightly fluttering (very rapid whoosh-whoosh-whoosh sound). I've even had the car stall while slowing down to make a right turn - transition from light throttle to throttle-off is sometimes enough to stall it.

Like I said, when I get some time I'll try to map out the limits.

Thanks,
 
Bob,

Just sent you a long email with lots of data on my stalling problem. Hopefully it will help shed some light.

Let me know what you think...

Thanks,
 
I just wanted to add my $0.02 ....

The IAC code for our cars although extensive, was designed to only correct "normal" fluctuations in idle rpm. As you said, changing a few IAC controls can make it better but not fix it completely. I agree with Bob that the Drive and P/N loop frequencies at 37.5 ms are already quick and making them faster won't fix this problem.

It's interesting that the stock MAF and chip works ok :cool: I have a TA49 and stock MAF but not a stock chip. ;) I've spent a bagillian (large number) hours testing things that affect idle and discovered that spark advance and target rpm have more affect on idle than most of the IAC controls. You want the spark advance after temperature adjustment for the combination of low LV8 (80 and below) and RPM up to 2000 to be at least the stock value and I prefer a minimum of 2 degrees higher.

Without knowing what the changes are in your chip its difficult to make specific suggestions.

Dennis
 
the idle spark advance in the extenders is 25 degrees, and is basically flat there.

His issue is one of MAF backflow giving him a big splash of fuel.

There is software in the chip that handles that, but his car is more prone to the problem then most.

We are working on the enabling thresholds for the software fix, hopefully he will have some data soon.


Bob
 
the idle spark advance in the extenders is 25 degrees, and is basically flat there.

His issue is one of MAF backflow giving him a big splash of fuel.

There is software in the chip that handles that, but his car is more prone to the problem then most.

We are working on the enabling thresholds for the software fix, hopefully he will have some data soon.


Bob

Bob,

Per my post above, I emailed you a bunch of data on Sunday night... did you receive it?

Thanks,
 
I got the excel stuff and sent back the details on adjusting the anti-stall feature.

Did you get that?

Bob
 
I got the excel stuff and sent back the details on adjusting the anti-stall feature.

Did you get that?

Bob

I'm sorry Bob, I didn't get it. I even checked my SPAM folder, and it wasn't there. I'm not sure what happened.

I'll send you another quick email - please just respond to that with the information.

Cyberspace has it's black holes, I guess...

Thanks,
 
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