starter trouble...thought I had heat soak

[jsta6]

My car was hard to start if I immediately tried to start it after I shut it off. I usually leave it parked for several hours at a time anyway, so this was usually not a problem.

I thought that I had starter heat soak. I replaced my starter with a mini starter that I wrapped in a heat sheild.

Well, I still have the same problem. My car wont start if it is really hot after I drive it. The starter spins for one or two cycles, then all of my power goes dead. If I turn the key off, and then on again, my power comes right back on.

My battery and alternator seem fine.

A while back, I relocated my battery to the trunk. The wire that goes to the starter is a 4 gauge wire. That wire goes to a 200amp fuse. That 200 amp fuse goes to another 4 gauge wire. That wire goes to another 200amp fuse in my trunk. That 200 amp fuse goes to a 4 gauge wire that goes to my battery.

The fuses have been turning from silver to purple when this problem happens. I know it is becuase the battery is throwing massive amounts of juice to my starter. I even blew a fuse a few weeks ago, back when I had the original starter.

This is my theory:
When the starter is hot, it takes more juice to start the car. The extra juice is killing the 200 amp fuses. I supported my theory today (when I got stuck) by bypassing my fuses and running the cable direct. My car started, but only after it cranked for a few extra seconds than it normally does. I then put the fuses back in line.

So, is this just a problem that I will have to live with? Will the car just be hard to start when it is hot? How many amps is the stater pulling when it is having this problem? Should I just use bigger fuses?

I am thinking that I never had this problem before, when the starter was fed right from the battery. I don't mind using bigger fuses, but I don't think that the starter should be acting the way it does.

Could there be another problem? Like the cam sensor or something?

TIA

 

[jsta6]

isn't the Internet amazing:

http://cartalk.cars.com/Columns/Archive/1993/September/06.html

 

[gofstbuick]

Out of curiosity, what size is the battery ground cable? Maybe you have a ground problem. Also, what points are your ground cables connected to?

 

[chiken]

wow your setuo sound con fuse ing. wow that was the worst pun i have ever heard. someone slap me before it happens again!

 

[Jeff]

A couple things to think about...

First, you should be using a larger diameter cable if the battery is in the trunk. 4 gauge is about the size of the stock 30" cable. I just upgraded mine to 2 gauge while replacing the old worn cable, and my battery is in the stock location. You should use at least 2, maybe 0 guage (available at welding supply shops).
Another thought is that you have too many fuses. You really only need one in the trunk close to the battery. That way if it shorts anywhere along the length you're protected, but you don't have the current drain across so many fuses. Select the fuse size based on the allowable current draw of the cable size you spec, you should be able to find the electrical spec somewhere online. I also agree that the ground is suspect. Use a nice heavy cable to the frame in the trunk, then again from the frame to the engine up front.
Also, make sure the wire to your solenoid is in good shape. I just pulled about 36" of 14 guage wire from under the dash on mine...some moron thought a kill switch would be good on the solenoid line so he installed it with 14 gauge (WAY undersized) and twisted the wires, instead of crimping and soldering. Cut the junk out of there, crimped and soldered correct 10 gauge wire, no more problem
Jeff

 

[Nick Micale]

Originally posted by jsta6
.....A while back, I relocated my battery to the trunk. The wire that goes to the starter is a 4 gauge wire. That wire goes to a 200amp fuse. That 200 amp fuse goes to another 4 gauge wire. That wire goes to another 200amp fuse in my trunk. That 200 amp fuse goes to a 4 gauge wire that goes to my battery.
.........
So, is this just a problem that I will have to live with?...........
I am thinking that I never had this problem before, when the starter was fed right from the battery.........Could there be another problem? Like the cam sensor or something?
TIA

We have done a few trunk-mounted batteries and never have a cranking problem even in this hot weather. My opinion is you have a few items that need changed. The 4 ga. wire to the starter is way too small. Also, power should go to a fender mounted solenoid, then to the starter. The factory fuseable links should also be mounted at the solenoid.

NO fuses are needed or desired in the power line, and the one to the starter is hot [powered] only when cranking.

Make sure there are heavy engine-to-frame, body-to-eng, and body-to-frame ground straps.

 

[jsta6]

Thanks everyone.

The battery (in the trunk) is grounded with 4 gauge to the frame and the chassis.

The grounds in the front are chassis, engine, frame.

I have two fuses. The one in the trunk is six inches away from the battery. The fuse in the engine compartment is to protect my alternator, ECM and other electronics... I know it will be almost impossible for this to ever actually be needed, but you never know what might happen if I should get in to an accident or something...just to be safe...you never know, there could be that one second after my car is cut in half by a freight train where my alternator is grounded and fries my ECM...

I have been reading a bit and I have found out that a starter may require as much as 400amps! And the GM high tourqe starter that I have requires as much as 250... So, the solution will be to add a solenoid in line with the fuse (front and back) that will provide POWER to the starter for cranking. Yeah, buddy, the answer is more power...

I will check out the need to upgrade to 2 gauge...

Thanks again!

 

[gofstbuick]

My cheby engine doesn't have near the electrical requirement of my GN engine, and there is 2 ott (sp) positive and negative battery cables for a battery that is mounted up front. Just my 0.02, i would follow what others have posted above and upgrade the cable diameter. Remember, eletricity basically travels in a circle, and what goes out must be able to return (hence the use of a negative cable that is the same size as the positive cable)

 

[jsta6]

The Internet is cool:

http://www.streetwires.com/products/wireGauge.cfm

 

[jsta6]

Thanks for all of your help guys!!! Here is a reply I made to someone elses post:

===============
After you get a new starter, if you just use a remote solenoid for the starter, with heavy gauge wiring, you should be good to go. (Nick Micale also mentioned this in my "starter heat soak" thread.

check this out:
http://www.novaresource.org/starter.htm
and then this:
http://www.madelectrical.com/

Also, Mike at www.turbobuicks.com sells a good ministarter.

I relocated my battery to my trunk, and the 4 gauge cable that I was using was killing my battery. Cold starts were no problem, but hot starts were forcing my battery to push all its power through a cable that was to small.

I read a lot on the subject. I am no guru, but this is what I know:

The starter/solenoid need A LOT of juice to get the car started; especially when hot.

I went all out and am using a 1/0 cable dedicated soley to the starter. I am using two solenoids that power the starter, but only when I am starting the car. One solenoid is in the trunk near the battery; this feeds the power to the front of the car when triggered by my starter wire.

The other solenoid is in the engine compartment; this acts as a remote solenoid for my starter solenoid; it feeds power to the starter/solenoid only when it gets power from the first solenoid.

I also use 1/0 cable on the grounds; Battery to chassis and body, and engine to chassis and body.

Now, I use the 4 guage cable for the alternator to battery connection only, and the 1/0 gauge cable just for the starter.

I will copy my schematic up to my web site as soon as I get a chance.

BTW, I found a great place to get 1/0 gauge cable and connectors for CHEAP.

Pacer Electronics:
800-432-0459, ask for Stacy

I got the tinned copper marine cable, but you can use the regular SAE cable if you want...it is $1 cheaper per foot...

 

[jsta6]

GRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!

Nick, et al:

Lets say that I am just using one solenoid. I am using it as a remote solenoid, so that means that I have jumpered my GM solenoid to my starter, so that they both get power at the same time from my remote solenoid...

(just like http://www.novaresource.org/starter.htm)

HOWEVER, , now my !@$#%&^ starter is staying "on" an extra second or two after the car starts (cuasing a grind that is majorly annoying). Is the remote solenoid feeding back to the starter relay cuasing an extra second or two of power? Should I use a "diode" or something on the signal wire?

I have talked to someone else that has a remote solenoid about this, and they have the same problem, but it is not as long.

I have a new mini starter.

Here is my schematic (don't be scared):
http://personal.mia.bellsouth.net/mia/s/h/shawnco/battery relocation/AUTO ELECTRIC_frame.htm

Here is my write up:
http://personal.mia.bellsouth.net/mia/s/h/shawnco/battery relocation/battery relocation.htm

TIA!!!

 

[Ken Cunningham]

I've been chasing an aggrevating periodic no-start problem very similar to this. Only when trying to restart the car when it's sat for a couple of minutes, still hot, I get no crank at all. The switch is working, because I get a voltage drop (~.5 vdc) and the lights on my radio go out, but no clicking, no cranking. After checking battery and alternator, I'm convinced that it's the starter, which I just replaced last month. Per the Click and Clack page "My guess is the starter's gears are binding up some of the time. When that happens, the starter encounters a lot of resistance, and it tries to overcome that resistance by drawing a lot of amps." Would you replace the starter again? It's under warranty, so there should be no cost there. But it is kinda of PITA to change. The other thing that has me puzzling over this, is that these starters did not fail in the usual way I have seen. There was no period of slow cranking to tell me "whoa, the starter must be going." Just a sudden death.

 

[Russ Merritt]

I had the same problem, IT"S THE GROUND!!! I ended up running the ground cable with the positive cable and grounded the battery at the head right next to the starter with o gage! Now it turns over faster than it idles, even hot! Grounding the battery to the frame near the trunk sucks unless you have huge ground straps all over the car, eng to frame, body to frame ect,ect and your still going to lose voltage. If you dont complete the loop, I don't care if you're pumping 24 volts to the starter, if you don't make it back to the battery it ain't worth s$#@! But what about the extra weight with the long neg. cable? If you can't handle 4 or 5 extra pounds, pull the corndog out of your mouth and go on a diet! Your starter, fuses, wiring & springs will thank you.

 

[GNX]

Ken,
I had the same symptoms and replaced the starter: NO CHANGE.

It was a battery dead cell (OPTIMA), even though the testing equipment showed the proper battery voltage.

Try a new battery first, let us know!

 

[jsta6]

Ken, I had the same exact problem that you had.

I had 4 gauge wire from the battery in the trunk to the starter. And 4 gauge wire from the battery in the trunk to the body in the trunk, and to the chassis underneath the trunk. I also had 4 guage wire from the engine block to the body in the engine compartment, and to the chassis.

The car wouldn't start when hot (new starter) and all the power would go out when I tried to start it.

I replaced my 4 guage with 1 guage, and I am using a remote solenoid, and all my problems magically disapeared...

 

[Steve Wood]

As all have said, number 4 gauge is way too small!
#2 is the smallest I would consider and I would not use that on my own car. But, then, I would not use a rear mounted battery on a street car so what do I know?

 

[Ken Cunningham]

OK, so I removed the neg. cable from the battery and cleaned up that connection. While I was there I cleaned up the 2 small grounds to the inner fender (1 from the neg. cable and 1 looks like it comes from the front lighting harness). Then I took the ground connection off where it connects to the block at the turbo bracket and cleaned that all up. What a PITA that is to reattach! I had already rewired the grounds at the back of the p/s head up to the intake. Are there any other grounds involved in the starting process I should clean up? The starter grounds through its mounting, does it not?

 

[jsta6]

Yes, the starter grounds at its mounting.

If you still have problems, it is either a bad cell in the battery (as someone mentioned earlier), or you should try a remote solenoid. Check out the wire that feeds the starters solenoid. See where it goes to and what it does. Try upgrading the cable that goes from the battery to the starter to a higher/thicker guage.

Check out this link:
http://www.novaresource.org/starter.htm

 

[BLACK6PACK]

Jsta6,

And 4 gauge wire from the battery in the trunk to the body in the trunk,

What are you doing with a body in the trunk?!?! And, why were u using it as a part of your electrical connections? I know you drive around with a bunch of crap in your trunk, but geeze, please take the body out of the trunk.

 

[jsta6]

do you honestly have nothing better to do?

Why don't you troll ebay looking for ricer gimmick add-ons like some of the other guys do...

...and you have no business sticking your nose in my posts on electrical connections anyway...you are using 15guage wire to hook up your amps...