I now feel totally frustrated and very embarrassed, especially since owning my first GN in 87(now owned by Hurricane Isabel), but I still haven't been able to get my 87 white Limited T to fire on the re-build. I posted about a month ago and studied all ideas, but still no luck. Motor turns over good, but does'nt want to spark over. Bill Anderson would gladly get it going for me, but I don't wanna pay $120 bucks to tow it there to his shop. I feel that it may be somthing small but.......?????? I have good fuel on the rail(37-38), the ECMs been changed(the original wasn't sending the message to the fuel pump at first), cam sensor is set right on the money according to the setting tool...unless it's 180deg. out, but how would I know this? I have plenty of spark, coil pak and module are new( both my original and new units work on my GN so I know there good). Crank sensor is new and set properly. TPS is set at .44. New wires, and yes they are in the correct position. A few years ago, Anderson advised my cam sensor was out 180 on my original GN, but the motor still ran good up to 45 mph. So now You see my frustration. Any of you fellas feel you want to phone me, I'll give my # in a PM.......Glenn :frown: :frown:
Still can't get it to fire
- Thread starter Glenn_A
- Start date
look at the orange wire at the computer and look at the chip to see if both are plugged in correctly...
for the cam sensor the harness should be at the 7 o'clock position and with the light on the tool on. if you have a scantool look to see if there is a cranking rpm should be around 200 rpm for spark to occur. look to see if the ignition module is pluged it correctly and no pins are corroded or bent..
if you dont have a cam sensor tool, here is a easy way to set the cam sensor...Take the cover off the sensor. There is the big window on the brass ring. 180 degrees around, there is a smaller window on that piece on the flat part of the ring.(not the bent up portion). There is a dimple in the aluminum housing of the sensor pointing somewhere towards the throttle body or in that area. That little window should be aimed at that dimple on the sensor housing. Thats a really easy way to set it
for the cam sensor the harness should be at the 7 o'clock position and with the light on the tool on. if you have a scantool look to see if there is a cranking rpm should be around 200 rpm for spark to occur. look to see if the ignition module is pluged it correctly and no pins are corroded or bent..
if you dont have a cam sensor tool, here is a easy way to set the cam sensor...Take the cover off the sensor. There is the big window on the brass ring. 180 degrees around, there is a smaller window on that piece on the flat part of the ring.(not the bent up portion). There is a dimple in the aluminum housing of the sensor pointing somewhere towards the throttle body or in that area. That little window should be aimed at that dimple on the sensor housing. Thats a really easy way to set it
- Joined
- May 24, 2004
Glenn, you said that the coil and module worked fine on your GN but have you checked to see if the plugs are auctualy fireing on the T??? If not I would look at the pins like my buick said. One bent one not getting in will cause havoc on you! Next thing is if you have a node tool see if your injectors are fireing for sure or if you don't have one spin it over and listen good. You should hear them clicking if they are fireing. Also one more thing is check to be sure you have all your grounds hooked up GOOD, that will cause one to act really weird, I had one break one time and the car wouldn't start till I found it and repaired it. If all that checks out it might possibly be the factory security acting up but that one is out of my leage right now. Good luck Daniel
Just to Make Sure
Just to make absolutely sure, check the cam sensor setting one more time. Following normal procedure of positioning the crank 25 degrees past top dead center (your mark that is 1.45 inches counterclockwise from TDC mark on harmonic balancer), loosen sensor and turn clockwise. If positioned correctly, voltage will immediately jump to 6 plus volts. If positioned incorrectly, will have to rotate the cam sensor several degrees to get past the sensor window before seeing 6 plus volts. Assuming you have the several degrees scenario, reset sensor by rotating it counterclockwise until voltage drops to zero. Tighten sensor and try starting again.
Richard
Just to make absolutely sure, check the cam sensor setting one more time. Following normal procedure of positioning the crank 25 degrees past top dead center (your mark that is 1.45 inches counterclockwise from TDC mark on harmonic balancer), loosen sensor and turn clockwise. If positioned correctly, voltage will immediately jump to 6 plus volts. If positioned incorrectly, will have to rotate the cam sensor several degrees to get past the sensor window before seeing 6 plus volts. Assuming you have the several degrees scenario, reset sensor by rotating it counterclockwise until voltage drops to zero. Tighten sensor and try starting again.
Richard
You can pull the # 1 plug and cover the hole with your finger and bump the car over. Watch the timing marks. When compression blows out past your finger and the dampner is at 0, that is TDC compression stroke. Move 1.45 inches further and set your cam sensor with the tool.
Make sure the crank sensor is plugged into the proper wire. I actually got another plug to go in that spot by reaching down and plugging it in without looking. Cost me two frusterating hours.
Make sure the crank sensor is plugged into the proper wire. I actually got another plug to go in that spot by reaching down and plugging it in without looking. Cost me two frusterating hours.
can't get fire
Rich, thanks a million...sounds like the plan that may be the trick and makes sense, however, looking at caspers cam tool diagram, 25 degrees looked like the mark was in the clockwise position(1 o'clock area) as opposed to coun ter...11 o'clock..........also, a guy in the neighborhood still thinks it's a fuel problem, even after the rail gauge is showing 37 lbs. He argues that the system may have air in the line and that the injectors may still not be getting adequate fuel even though the gauge is reading plenty of pressure....which he thinks is because of air in the line....I'm not really buying that
Rich, thanks a million...sounds like the plan that may be the trick and makes sense, however, looking at caspers cam tool diagram, 25 degrees looked like the mark was in the clockwise position(1 o'clock area) as opposed to coun ter...11 o'clock..........also, a guy in the neighborhood still thinks it's a fuel problem, even after the rail gauge is showing 37 lbs. He argues that the system may have air in the line and that the injectors may still not be getting adequate fuel even though the gauge is reading plenty of pressure....which he thinks is because of air in the line....I'm not really buying that
Then dont :smile: casue you can take the gauge off and probably have fuel spray out,not air..I dont think anyone has ever had that problem of air,I have had my rails off about 10 times ,never bleed sqaut of air ,just fired up....Glenn_A said:
Cam Sensor!!!! :redface:
Try resetting the cam sensor, drop the cam sensor in at TDC on the compression stroke, then turn the motor clockwise to 25 degrees passes TDC around 1.47 inches passed the timing mark on the balancer. Turn the cam sensor 1/4 turn clock wise then turn it counter clock wise until the light just comes on. It works like a charm for me all the time
HTH
Prasad
HTH
Prasad
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2001
Glenn_A said:
I had a 86 turbo regal that lost all the fuel out of the tank from sitting in the sun too long. It actually pumped air into the fuel line and would read pressure.
Turn the key on and make sure your SES light comes on, if not the orange wire at the batt may not be getting power thru the end.
Check the fuses under the dash, make sure you have a good injector fuse and that its not popped.
If the cam sensor is out 180° it will still start and run, just pop under a load.
Pull a plug after cranking it, are they wet or dry?
Do you have spark?
Is the crank sensor plugged in?
How long has the car been sitting? Varify that you have fuel in the rail by taking your gauge off and getting fuel out of it for a split second.
Sounds like a simple one, you just need to find out whats wrong.
BW
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2001
Cam sensor is for fuel
Crank sensor is for spark, check to see if the coil pack is plugged in, and then make sure the crank sensor is bolted in correctly.
BW
Crank sensor is for spark, check to see if the coil pack is plugged in, and then make sure the crank sensor is bolted in correctly.
BW
The crank is for fuel, the crank is for spark. You get neither (spark of fuel)until the cam sensor tells the ignition module to let the crank signal through to the ECM, which gives you fuel off the crank signal, and the cam signal also tells the ignition module to provide spark to the proper cylinder which is derived off of the crank signal. The ECM does not control spark until the rpm goes above 400RPM. Also during the cranking process, or rather the starting process, all the injectors are fired at once, sequential injection isn't implemented until above the 400 rpm threshold that's when the spark control is handed off to the ECM and the sequential fuel starts.
Wayne
Wayne
firing up
guys, thanks for all the help...lastly, other than the old fashioned way of determining TDC by the #1 cylinder compression, how does anyone determine TDC by the timing marks because it's impossible to see from the top or side and mine were marked on the re-build making it easier to see, but not after everything is put back together...
guys, thanks for all the help...lastly, other than the old fashioned way of determining TDC by the #1 cylinder compression, how does anyone determine TDC by the timing marks because it's impossible to see from the top or side and mine were marked on the re-build making it easier to see, but not after everything is put back together...
Should be able to see the marks on the harmonic balancer looking straight down just to the left of the alternator bracket. A good small flashlight helps a lot. If still hard to see, some white out at the marks helps.Glenn_A said:
Good luck and let us know when you get it started.
Richard
- Joined
- May 9, 2002
It looks to me that it might be time to reconsider here....Glenn_A said:
Do you know anybody with AAA coverage? If I'm present when a car needs towing (up to 100 miles) AAA covers it, period. You need a friend
lee
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2001
Lee_Burough said:It looks to me that it might be time to reconsider here....
Do you know anybody with AAA coverage? If I'm present when a car needs towing (up to 100 miles) AAA covers it, period. You need a friend
lee
HMMMMMM
Got to love those benefits!
I had no idea..
BW
