TE-60 vs ported heads
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Man...slap that TE60 on there and have at it for a while. Worst case, you'll complain about it being "laggy" with the stock converter. Then you'll either think about, or put in a looser converter (because that's what everyone is going to say) and it'll pickup a little, and you'll think that was the problem. When actually you moved the RPM's up, which increased the flow! But once you put heads on the car, then things will really start to happen and you'll say "I should have done this a long time ago"...which is where you are right now.
Every car is different and I (for one) had good results with a TE60/TE61 with stock heads and believe it not...stock cam and converter. True, the TE60 (without heads or converter) did not spool like the stocker, but I did run low 11's like that! Once I put heads on it, it was a totally different car.
It's just my 2-cents worth and I'm sticking to it!
-Bobby
Man...slap that TE60 on there and have at it for a while. Worst case, you'll complain about it being "laggy" with the stock converter. Then you'll either think about, or put in a looser converter (because that's what everyone is going to say) and it'll pickup a little, and you'll think that was the problem. When actually you moved the RPM's up, which increased the flow! But once you put heads on the car, then things will really start to happen and you'll say "I should have done this a long time ago"...which is where you are right now.
Every car is different and I (for one) had good results with a TE60/TE61 with stock heads and believe it not...stock cam and converter. True, the TE60 (without heads or converter) did not spool like the stocker, but I did run low 11's like that! Once I put heads on it, it was a totally different car.
It's just my 2-cents worth and I'm sticking to it!
-Bobby
Russ Merritt
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That's what he wanted to hear!
turbot2112
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ive been thinking about doing the heads for a while now. damit all, i think you guys just talked me into it.
Ported heads are the best bang for the buck! Thats assuming that the porter knows what he is doing. Make sure they have many years of experience, and have kept up with technology. If they don't have a good flow bench to quantify their work @ 50 thousands increments run away. The labor should be about 500-600 if they know Buicks, and the porting should be about 900 with between 250 and 450 for a good valve job and guides if it needs em. Does higher boost increase the chance of detonation? Yes it does. It is correct that cylinder preassure will be about the same for the same power level with low boost or high. The difference is that the air will be much hotter. It is not just a linear increase in temp either. Once you take the turbo past it's comfort zone(compressor map sweet spot) the rise in temp is quite dramatic. Kind of like sticking a red hot poker into the combustion chamber with the air and fuel charge. The cylinder preassure is the same until it detonates. Porting the heads should be the first thing you do before you chip it, before you change the injectors, turbo, or anything else. Of course that is not what happens. People love bolt ons, and so do the manufacturers. The magazines work for the manufacturers, and 99% of what they tell you to do is going to be bolt ons. I install lots of bolt ons in our shop, but the guy that ports his heads is going to be the one that wins at the races. Later.....Danny
quote:
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Originally posted by Russ Merritt
That's what he wanted to hear!
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You are correct. I wanted to read real world experiences of using a TE-60 vs ported heads and that is what Bmason provided. I learned that the TE-60 will provide me some performance gain (as also stated by some others) but that it might be laggy with my converter and that I may need a higher stall. I also learned that the TE-60/converter combo would really wake up when combined with ported heads.
Now I have to decide if I want to upgrade to a TE-60 now and see how it works with my current converter and then get the heads done when/if I blow a hg. Or, do I just want to stay with my current TA-49 and get the heads done when/if I blow a hg. Whichever turbo I go with, I know the heads will provide a signficant performance improvement.
I have decided that I will not get the heads done until I blow a hg. Maybe at that time I will have found someone local that would help me r&r the heads/intake or I will have found someone that would do it for less labor cost. Of course after blowing a hg I would have to hope that the rest of the engine is in good shape and not need a cam/crank/pistons/etc. Another option would be to purchase a rebuilt long block and just drop it in. Frankg seems to be a good supplier of those here on the east coast.
That about sums it up for me. I hope this thread has been of benefit to others with the same dilemma.
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Originally posted by Russ Merritt
That's what he wanted to hear!
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You are correct. I wanted to read real world experiences of using a TE-60 vs ported heads and that is what Bmason provided. I learned that the TE-60 will provide me some performance gain (as also stated by some others) but that it might be laggy with my converter and that I may need a higher stall. I also learned that the TE-60/converter combo would really wake up when combined with ported heads.
Now I have to decide if I want to upgrade to a TE-60 now and see how it works with my current converter and then get the heads done when/if I blow a hg. Or, do I just want to stay with my current TA-49 and get the heads done when/if I blow a hg. Whichever turbo I go with, I know the heads will provide a signficant performance improvement.
I have decided that I will not get the heads done until I blow a hg. Maybe at that time I will have found someone local that would help me r&r the heads/intake or I will have found someone that would do it for less labor cost. Of course after blowing a hg I would have to hope that the rest of the engine is in good shape and not need a cam/crank/pistons/etc. Another option would be to purchase a rebuilt long block and just drop it in. Frankg seems to be a good supplier of those here on the east coast.
That about sums it up for me. I hope this thread has been of benefit to others with the same dilemma.
DonnieShort
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I have a set of Mease fully ported and polished race irons. I got them from Herb Fishman ( TurboRegal84 ). With my current set up, I should see a 4-5 tenth pick up. With the right tune of course.
Russ/NoNos38
I think it's easier to do the turbo than it would be to do the heads, especially if he doesn't want to pay someone to do it and can't do it himself. If you'd re-read what I wrote, I'm saying that the heads are a better performance choice. For the sake of simplicity, slapping the turbo on would give him some immediate performance increase...but at the price of it being laggy and possibly having to throw a converter into the mix as well.
Look Quick
I am running a stock converter and I've also run an Orange Stripe (Street Brawler) converter with good success. I broke the input shaft, killed the converter, so I'm back to the stock one. The whole point that I was trying to make was, people usually put bigger turbos on before doing the heads and use a converter to (IMO) bandaid the "spoolup" problem. I personally think/know that you can tune a stock head, cam and converter car to run well with a TE60, it just takes time. When I purchased my set of Champion CNC heads, it was like a totally different car. It is well worth the effort. Oh, one last thing. You keep saying that you'll change the HG when you blow one. If you keep the car in-check, you shouldn't blow one, therefore you'll never do the heads!
Do the turbo now, save up for or find someone that can help you install the heads, you'll be happy you did.
-Bobby
I think it's easier to do the turbo than it would be to do the heads, especially if he doesn't want to pay someone to do it and can't do it himself. If you'd re-read what I wrote, I'm saying that the heads are a better performance choice. For the sake of simplicity, slapping the turbo on would give him some immediate performance increase...but at the price of it being laggy and possibly having to throw a converter into the mix as well.
Look Quick
I am running a stock converter and I've also run an Orange Stripe (Street Brawler) converter with good success. I broke the input shaft, killed the converter, so I'm back to the stock one. The whole point that I was trying to make was, people usually put bigger turbos on before doing the heads and use a converter to (IMO) bandaid the "spoolup" problem. I personally think/know that you can tune a stock head, cam and converter car to run well with a TE60, it just takes time. When I purchased my set of Champion CNC heads, it was like a totally different car. It is well worth the effort. Oh, one last thing. You keep saying that you'll change the HG when you blow one. If you keep the car in-check, you shouldn't blow one, therefore you'll never do the heads!
Do the turbo now, save up for or find someone that can help you install the heads, you'll be happy you did.-Bobby
alb84---I wholeheartedly agree with what you say; heads are where the biggest gain would be. However, I guess I am one of the ones who just don't want to replace heads unless I blow a hg. That statement is driven by the cost of replacement. If I could do it myself, the heads would already have been replaced.
Bmason---Thanks for the 'positive' feedback about a TE-60 and a stock head/cam/converter. I know it will take tuning and I also know that the heads would make a tremendous improvement. Regarding blowing a hg, you will see in my response to Russ that I qualified that with "when/if". I am not trying to blow a hg, especially after I see how much it would cost to replace one. Also, I could do more damage to the motor than just a hg by running the motor too hard. 
As Steve Wood pointed out on the other site, I have not maxed out my current combo, so why go to a larger turbo yet. Something else for me to consider.
Thanks again to everyone for all the responses.
Bmason---Thanks for the 'positive' feedback about a TE-60 and a stock head/cam/converter. I know it will take tuning and I also know that the heads would make a tremendous improvement. Regarding blowing a hg, you will see in my response to Russ that I qualified that with "when/if".
I am not trying to blow a hg, especially after I see how much it would cost to replace one. Also, I could do more damage to the motor than just a hg by running the motor too hard. As Steve Wood pointed out on the other site, I have not maxed out my current combo, so why go to a larger turbo yet. Something else for me to consider.
Thanks again to everyone for all the responses.
Jim,
Have you looked into the new GT series turbos? They have an improved exhaust wheel for quicker spool up. So you could upgrade your turbo and not suffer with major lag problems. There's also the "True" GT series coming out soon.
We had the same combo for a while but I went with a TE-61 and 3200 9/11 and love it. The new Extender F did help the car wake up and get out of the hole quicker compared to other chips. I still haven't been to the track yet but I ran 12.1 @ 114 with the TA-49. My next upgrade are Champion Irons and intake. Can't beat what you get for the price.
Good luck,
Chuck M.
Have you looked into the new GT series turbos? They have an improved exhaust wheel for quicker spool up. So you could upgrade your turbo and not suffer with major lag problems. There's also the "True" GT series coming out soon.
We had the same combo for a while but I went with a TE-61 and 3200 9/11 and love it. The new Extender F did help the car wake up and get out of the hole quicker compared to other chips. I still haven't been to the track yet but I ran 12.1 @ 114 with the TA-49. My next upgrade are Champion Irons and intake. Can't beat what you get for the price.
Good luck,
Chuck M.
Hi Chuck,
Good to hear from you; hope all is well in FL.
I have been reading some about the GT turbos but that is about all. I will look closer at them, especially if they spool fast and I could use my current converter. I also have the Extender F and it is a great chip.
Your current combo sounds great and will really improve with the heads. You should be in the low 11's when dialed in. What hg are you going to use with the Champions?
Good to hear from you; hope all is well in FL.
I have been reading some about the GT turbos but that is about all. I will look closer at them, especially if they spool fast and I could use my current converter. I also have the Extender F and it is a great chip. Your current combo sounds great and will really improve with the heads. You should be in the low 11's when dialed in. What hg are you going to use with the Champions?
OK, I got another price to r&r the heads/intake and it was $675. Now my question is, how do I ensure the block surface is straight and will provide a perfect seal for the heads? If it isn't straight, then the engine will have to be removed and sent to be machined, correct? Then if the cam has a wiped lobe, that will have to be replaced. Then if the bearings/crank/etc. are bad, they will need replaced. Wouldn't it be better to just buy a rebuilt short block/heads/intake to start with and just drop in? Sorry for all the questions. I really do appreciate all your help.
salvageV6
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Straight edge and feeler gauges will most likely work for the block trueness.
Probably could check the cam by checking valve opening and closing dimensions cylinder to cylinder with a magnetic gauge setup with just the valve covers off and idling or cranking it over.
Then again if you just got a bigger turbo and left that great factory seal you could go through life fat, drunk, and stoopid like me.
$675 is reasonable good luck.
Probably could check the cam by checking valve opening and closing dimensions cylinder to cylinder with a magnetic gauge setup with just the valve covers off and idling or cranking it over.
Then again if you just got a bigger turbo and left that great factory seal you could go through life fat, drunk, and stoopid like me.
$675 is reasonable good luck.
salvageV6
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Nah go to a 61 or 63 or 66 ball bearing.
I can't spend your money however.
Heads are a great step up in performance when you are ready and able to do them.
A big turbo will require a higher stall converter and more work anyway.
Do the heads if you are ready.
Paragraph 3 of my last post was kind of a joke anyway, but that's what I did for my car, at least I'll have a big turbo to move the air when I have to get the heads done.
I can't spend your money however.
Heads are a great step up in performance when you are ready and able to do them.
A big turbo will require a higher stall converter and more work anyway.
Do the heads if you are ready.
Paragraph 3 of my last post was kind of a joke anyway, but that's what I did for my car, at least I'll have a big turbo to move the air when I have to get the heads done.
