Russ Merritt
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.040 thickness.
TE-60 vs ported heads
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.040 thickness.
I switched to a TE-60 and Vigilante 2800 stall about 3years ago. The turbo flashes up to maximum boost in about 2-3 seconds (22 PSI, and going from a stop). Others have driven my car and commented about how fast the boost comes up, so I don't agree with needing 3000 stall. More recently, a buddy ported my iron heads and intake. The car flows a lot more air than it used to, evident by the duty cycles and injector swaps. I ran 009's for several years, but after the head porting I ran out of injector. Now with 55's, I run a ~70% PE fuel curve.
And I wanted to add that the RJC Bullet Proof Head Gasket kit is holding up very well for me.
And I wanted to add that the RJC Bullet Proof Head Gasket kit is holding up very well for me.
F&^% that factory seal bull$hit! I'm gettin tired of hearin that crap. Put the fear of god into everyone bout changin heads. THAT'S A CROCK!
Gee thanks for that unbiased intelligent reply Russ...number one nobody is trying to "put the fear of god" in anyone...it's a fact that the factory used expensive finely calibrated machines to torque the heads down...and I've seen nothing compare to the abuse the stock factory installed gaskets can take...they can withstand detonation over and over again...even though you try to stay away from any detonation...S#$T happens...try that after you've replaced the factory sealed gaskets...just talk to some TR owners around here who have sets of blown HG's hanging on the walls of their garages...I've abused mine several times at 28 lbs boost and they haven't given up yet...are they on the edge...who knows...who cares...when they go they go...but I'm not going to break the seal just to put on ported heads so I can run less boost...I'm having fun pushing the car as it is at high boost...as for the 9/10 second guys do you really think all of them just popped the heads off with the factory sealed gaskets and put on ported heads...I highly doubt it...at least the 10 second guys around here went the same route I'm going...run the factory gaskets until they blow.
Gee thanks for that unbiased intelligent reply Russ...number one nobody is trying to "put the fear of god" in anyone...it's a fact that the factory used expensive finely calibrated machines to torque the heads down...and I've seen nothing compare to the abuse the stock factory installed gaskets can take...they can withstand detonation over and over again...even though you try to stay away from any detonation...S#$T happens...try that after you've replaced the factory sealed gaskets...just talk to some TR owners around here who have sets of blown HG's hanging on the walls of their garages...I've abused mine several times at 28 lbs boost and they haven't given up yet...are they on the edge...who knows...who cares...when they go they go...but I'm not going to break the seal just to put on ported heads so I can run less boost...I'm having fun pushing the car as it is at high boost...as for the 9/10 second guys do you really think all of them just popped the heads off with the factory sealed gaskets and put on ported heads...I highly doubt it...at least the 10 second guys around here went the same route I'm going...run the factory gaskets until they blow.
TurboBuickSix
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Opinions may very...here's mine...
I just took it apart a few weeks ago and am doing it slowly over the winter.The problems I found can be seen here .Yes the gaskets looked fine ,the cam did'nt but it still ran the time below with a 44 despite the cam lobe being half gone.This motor was babied too,I bought it from an older gentleman that never abused it or modded it at all.If I had kept going over next summer like I first wanted to I would have needed a crank too,but seeing I did'nt my std std turbo crank looks new.You can see most of the cross hatch marks in the bores too upon close inspection.I don't see the sense in running over 25 psi if you don't have to,you really stress everything way more than needed by doing that.I should easily meet my goals(11.5 ish)next summer without blowing any gaskets.I do ALL of my own work,I farm out only the machine work.I would not trust any mechanic unless maybe a TR expert to do as good of a job as I would.I have never had problems building motors because I get pretty anal about it all, but that's just me.If everything is straight,clean and you torque it down in steps,the extra power you get from the porting you won't need nearly as much boost to make the power.Your crank,pistons,oil seals/gaskets,turbo,intercooler heat soak,will all be happier in the long run.So yes the factory seal is superior because of the process but the benefits of going thru everything and a port and polish outweighs it.Detonation at higher boost levels can do more damage too.Don't forget to do the intake too should you decide to port.Sorry so long,Good luck.
I just took it apart a few weeks ago and am doing it slowly over the winter.The problems I found can be seen here .Yes the gaskets looked fine ,the cam did'nt but it still ran the time below with a 44 despite the cam lobe being half gone.This motor was babied too,I bought it from an older gentleman that never abused it or modded it at all.If I had kept going over next summer like I first wanted to I would have needed a crank too,but seeing I did'nt my std std turbo crank looks new.You can see most of the cross hatch marks in the bores too upon close inspection.I don't see the sense in running over 25 psi if you don't have to,you really stress everything way more than needed by doing that.I should easily meet my goals(11.5 ish)next summer without blowing any gaskets.I do ALL of my own work,I farm out only the machine work.I would not trust any mechanic unless maybe a TR expert to do as good of a job as I would.I have never had problems building motors because I get pretty anal about it all, but that's just me.If everything is straight,clean and you torque it down in steps,the extra power you get from the porting you won't need nearly as much boost to make the power.Your crank,pistons,oil seals/gaskets,turbo,intercooler heat soak,will all be happier in the long run.So yes the factory seal is superior because of the process but the benefits of going thru everything and a port and polish outweighs it.Detonation at higher boost levels can do more damage too.Don't forget to do the intake too should you decide to port.Sorry so long,Good luck.
My stock and original 3.8 motor ran 4 tenths faster after the factory original heads were ported. Et reduced from an 11.17 at 121 MPH with stock motor to 10.77 125 MPH with head work. In my opinion head work really wakes up these motors. The cam and intake were left untouched. The turbo of choice at that time was the TE 34 with .82 turbine housing. I later upgraded to a TE 60 with a .63 turbine housing but ran no quicker or faster. I have never blown a head gasket on that motor. The issue of better sealing with the factory gasket may or may not be true. However, I believe it has more to do with straight surface areas and correct installation.
tminer
Not quite normal
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Ported heads = more air = more cylinder pressure = greater chance of head gasket failure.
Just because one can run lower boost with ported heads does not mean that there is less risk of detonation or head gasket failure.
Quite the opposite. With the increased cylinder pressures any detonation will have a larger impact. The stock heads at higher boost making less power will withstand much more detonation that ported heads at lower boost making more power.
It will take a laboratory experiment to convince me that torqueing all 8 bolts simultaneously with 0 torque differential will make a significant difference in head sealing over properly sequenced individual bolt tightening with a good torque wrench and small torque increments. I imaginge that GM did all 8 at once to save time, and quite possibly at the expense of the seal. If it were that big of a deal then the R&R procedure would spec much smaller increments than 90*.
It wouldn't surprise me if longevity or slight warping when original heads are removed could contribute. So I'd suggest that one should check the deck for flatness and be prepared to have it decked if replacing heads (which should also be flat).
Tom
Just because one can run lower boost with ported heads does not mean that there is less risk of detonation or head gasket failure.
Quite the opposite. With the increased cylinder pressures any detonation will have a larger impact. The stock heads at higher boost making less power will withstand much more detonation that ported heads at lower boost making more power.
It will take a laboratory experiment to convince me that torqueing all 8 bolts simultaneously with 0 torque differential will make a significant difference in head sealing over properly sequenced individual bolt tightening with a good torque wrench and small torque increments. I imaginge that GM did all 8 at once to save time, and quite possibly at the expense of the seal. If it were that big of a deal then the R&R procedure would spec much smaller increments than 90*.
It wouldn't surprise me if longevity or slight warping when original heads are removed could contribute. So I'd suggest that one should check the deck for flatness and be prepared to have it decked if replacing heads (which should also be flat).
Tom
TurboBuickSix
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"Ported heads = more air = more cylinder pressure = greater chance of head gasket failure.
Just because one can run lower boost with ported heads does not mean that there is less risk of detonation or head gasket failure."
That makes sense but don't change the fact that overall your better off with lower boost levels.Would the heads have a better chance of lifting at higher boost levels? I like the idea of making more power on the motor, not higher boost levels.Also makes spoolup and low end better if done right.I learned how much a porting does for this motor when I was attempting to make a hot air fast,it was the biggest gain that I noticed.I also payed attention to folks here that had the same parts that were going faster than I,and it was always porting or the intercooler that seemed to be the variation.I would like to hear what S.Wood or Ormand says about this or anyone else with that many years TR or Buick machine shop experience.
Just because one can run lower boost with ported heads does not mean that there is less risk of detonation or head gasket failure."
That makes sense but don't change the fact that overall your better off with lower boost levels.Would the heads have a better chance of lifting at higher boost levels? I like the idea of making more power on the motor, not higher boost levels.Also makes spoolup and low end better if done right.I learned how much a porting does for this motor when I was attempting to make a hot air fast,it was the biggest gain that I noticed.I also payed attention to folks here that had the same parts that were going faster than I,and it was always porting or the intercooler that seemed to be the variation.I would like to hear what S.Wood or Ormand says about this or anyone else with that many years TR or Buick machine shop experience.
Russ Merritt
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No sweat, let me know if you need more help with anything. Where are the "expensive finely caliberated machines" at Hendrick motorsports, Yates racing, Childress racing, and every other high performance engine machine shop in the country? They don't need em! Why? The factory did it that way for one reason, TIME!
If there were a significant advantage to doing it this way, wouldn't every machine shop have this equipment and add as an option if you have your engine assembled by them? YES THEY WOULD!
MSDGN, I actually do my own work. I rebuilt my own engine back in 93 and broke the "vigin seal". I proceded to beat that engine to death for 8 YEARS before I rebuilt it again, never once blowing any HGs. It went 11.57 on stock heads and cam. You cannot justify that you can NEVER get the factory seal back. I DID, along with 1000s of other people.
EVERYONE, LISTEN UP. All the rebuilt high performance turbo V6s out there, you better park em. Your HGs are leakin.
"We're all doomed!"
Jim you're car is pretty fast I'd hate to be in your shoes right now because you're at the point of breaking open the motor or scratchin for tenths with a bigger turbo or going in the motor for the big gains.
My vote is bigger turbo bigger converter.
Maybe a ta-61 or even a te-63 with a 9/11 converter.
My vote is bigger turbo bigger converter.
Maybe a ta-61 or even a te-63 with a 9/11 converter.
Go with the heads, you,ll gain twice what you would going from a 49 to a 60, that might sound like a lot but it isn,t much more of a turbo, not worth the m oney IMO, With a killer set of heads and a good intercooler you can max out those 50# inj,s with the 49.
Then if you want to go faster get a 45 or a 70 series with 72# inj,s . Been there did all of that!
Factory seal, what a joke that was.
9sec.
Then if you want to go faster get a 45 or a 70 series with 72# inj,s . Been there did all of that!
Factory seal, what a joke that was.
9sec.
Barnes---I sent you a pm.
9SEC--Out of curiosity, I called the local GN shop for a price to r&r heads/intake. It was $900-$1,000 labor plus the $850 or so that I would pay for a set of ported heads/intake. That is close to $2,000 and a lot more than I want to spend on heads. I also asked the owner about just upgrading to the TE-60 and he said I would probably gain just as much with the TE-60 as I would with the heads. If I do anything now, it will probably be the TE-60 upgrade since that is something I can do the labor on myself. I will just have to see if the TE-60 works with my current converter. By the way, the TE-60 is about the same as a TA-61 and is a bigger step up from a TA-49/TA-60. I agree with your statements, but I don't want to spend mega bucks for heads/intake right now. The TE-60 will benefit from the heads in the future if I ever get them done so it will be a positive upgrade.
9SEC--Out of curiosity, I called the local GN shop for a price to r&r heads/intake. It was $900-$1,000 labor plus the $850 or so that I would pay for a set of ported heads/intake. That is close to $2,000 and a lot more than I want to spend on heads. I also asked the owner about just upgrading to the TE-60 and he said I would probably gain just as much with the TE-60 as I would with the heads. If I do anything now, it will probably be the TE-60 upgrade since that is something I can do the labor on myself. I will just have to see if the TE-60 works with my current converter. By the way, the TE-60 is about the same as a TA-61 and is a bigger step up from a TA-49/TA-60. I agree with your statements, but I don't want to spend mega bucks for heads/intake right now. The TE-60 will benefit from the heads in the future if I ever get them done so it will be a positive upgrade.
Russ Merritt
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Man, you knew you were gonna buy the turbo before you even asked the question. What did you think, heads were gonna be even close to the cost of just a turbo?
Buy the 60. You'll have fun with it.............. For about that long. You will buy heads when that's not enough. "TRUST ME"
That's ok too cause both will be that much better. Have fun.
Buy the 60. You'll have fun with it.............. For about that long. You will buy heads when that's not enough. "TRUST ME"
That's ok too cause both will be that much better. Have fun.Russ---I did know the cost of the heads and intake were about double the cost of the turbo upgrade; what I didn't know was how much the labor would be on the heads/intake. That really caught my attention! As salvage V6 stated earlier, that is another reason not to remove the heads unless I blow a hg.
Russ Merritt
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That's why YOU should do it. If you can do your own turbo, you could do your own head swap. The hardest thing about the whole job is the clean up! Take your time, if you have any questions we're all here to help you! It's winter! Plenty of time to do it. NO EXCUSES! 
salvageV6
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I also agree the turbo is too small to be considered a good upgrade for the money. Maybe a TE61 or 62 or 52.
Save the $$$ for other parts you want or need.
Heads are a great mod. when you need to change the gaskets.
Just remember the lower boost with ported heads is still putting more stress and cylinder pressure on the pistons and crank assuming you are making more power anyway.
I'll probably do the heads on one car myself someday and pay someone to do the second car after that ordeal.
Question is Frank G's ported irons or Champions.... DOH!
Save the $$$ for other parts you want or need.
Heads are a great mod. when you need to change the gaskets.
Just remember the lower boost with ported heads is still putting more stress and cylinder pressure on the pistons and crank assuming you are making more power anyway.
I'll probably do the heads on one car myself someday and pay someone to do the second car after that ordeal.
Question is Frank G's ported irons or Champions.... DOH!
Why won't I see a big improvement with the TE-60? According to the info below, it is bigger than a TE-51 and PT 52 and flows the same as a TA-61. Would the TE-61 be too large for my restalled D5? Thanks.
Turbo Compressor
Wheel Exhaust
Wheel Flow Rating
Rated HP Minimum
Recommended Stall
TE-34 T04E 57 Trim T3 76 Trim 785CFM 530HP 2600RPM
TA-49 T04E 60 Trim T3 76 Trim 800CFM 545HP 2600RPM
TA-60 T04B 60-1 T3 76 Trim 830CFM 565HP 2800RPM
TE-44 T04E 60 Trim T3 76 Trim 850CFM 580HP 2700RPM
TA-51 T04E 60 Trim T350 70 Trim 870CFM 580HP 2800RPM
TE-51 T04E 60 Trim T350 70 Trim 875CFM 585HP 2800RPM
PT-52 T04B 60-1 T350 76 Trim 890CFM 600HP 2900RPM
TE-60 T04B 60-1 T3 76 Trim 900CFM 600HP 2800RPM
TA-61 T04B 60-1 T04B 69 Trim 900CFM 600HP 3000RPM
TE-53 T04E 60 Trim T04B 69 Trim 915CFM 610HP 3000RPM
TE-61 T04B 60-1 T04B 69 Trim 920CFM 615HP 2800RPM
Turbo Compressor
Wheel Exhaust
Wheel Flow Rating
Rated HP Minimum
Recommended Stall
TE-34 T04E 57 Trim T3 76 Trim 785CFM 530HP 2600RPM
TA-49 T04E 60 Trim T3 76 Trim 800CFM 545HP 2600RPM
TA-60 T04B 60-1 T3 76 Trim 830CFM 565HP 2800RPM
TE-44 T04E 60 Trim T3 76 Trim 850CFM 580HP 2700RPM
TA-51 T04E 60 Trim T350 70 Trim 870CFM 580HP 2800RPM
TE-51 T04E 60 Trim T350 70 Trim 875CFM 585HP 2800RPM
PT-52 T04B 60-1 T350 76 Trim 890CFM 600HP 2900RPM
TE-60 T04B 60-1 T3 76 Trim 900CFM 600HP 2800RPM
TA-61 T04B 60-1 T04B 69 Trim 900CFM 600HP 3000RPM
TE-53 T04E 60 Trim T04B 69 Trim 915CFM 610HP 3000RPM
TE-61 T04B 60-1 T04B 69 Trim 920CFM 615HP 2800RPM
Russ---I can do all the bolt on stuff/injectors but I don't feel comfortable once inside the motor. If I had someone living close to me that knew what they were doing, I would attempt it. I just don't want to try this by asking questions via the internet and maybe screw something up really bad and do more harm than I should.
DonnieShort
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Well, I've decided to put my heads on, and a biger cam. Gonna do this over the winter so I can take my time. And as far as the " virgin seal ", it won't be the first one I've popped
