TH400 The real answer
- Thread starter charliep
- Start date
+1 on the Carl Rossler TH400.
I've gotten two trannys from him the last few years. One went in a 632 powered Camaro, the other went in a 555 powered Chevelle.
If you look on the home page of his website, about 1/2 way down the page on the RH side is a pic of my Camaro and a brief comment I sent him.
FWIW, I too just made the switch to a TH400 in my '87 GN.
I just cannot justify dumping $2000+ into an inferior transmission.
I've gotten two trannys from him the last few years. One went in a 632 powered Camaro, the other went in a 555 powered Chevelle.
If you look on the home page of his website, about 1/2 way down the page on the RH side is a pic of my Camaro and a brief comment I sent him.
FWIW, I too just made the switch to a TH400 in my '87 GN.
I just cannot justify dumping $2000+ into an inferior transmission.
jakeshoe said:
thank you for posting that, I thought 100 was quite inflated but I could not say for certain...
Norbs...why couldn't you get that kind of converter for a 4L80? There are all kinds of converters out there for it...vigilante, yank, TCI...etc.
Not only does the 4L80 offer custom tuneability but you can control it in a number of different ways, and if you don't like the idea of adding something like the beauman transmission controller I think someone came out with a manual setup for it ie reverse manual valve body. It would take over 600 horse/torque to get close to hurting one in stock form, they are just as tough as the old th400
Thanks for all of the responses. Keep them coming. I'm very familiar with the Ford C4 and powerglide from my own racing experiences. I owned a low 9 second Mustang and presently own a Dragster that runs Low 8's with a SBF. I did what everyone else does when I needed a 2004r. I read everything I could on the internet and called several of the vendors until I made the decision to buy one. What you read everyone saying their trans does this and that and can handle 800HP yada yada yada. Where do they get their info from? Do they have a customer making 800HP that tests their transmission? I doubt it.
I just finished helping a friend do a Baumanator on a Lightning. I dont wish that on anybody. The software is not user friendly. This is not for the average person. Now the TCI trans controller, thats a much better unit in my opinion. In Baumans defense they stood behind the product and assisted us in getting it running.
Also I dont think a 200R4 is inferior. It serves it purpose very well within its design. When built properly with the correct parts ($$$) it will last a long time. Lonnie and Bruce have demontrated this.
If you are willing to spend the money the 200R 4 all the way. But if you are a racer on a budget and dont mind loosing OD the 400 is best.
Also I dont think a 200R4 is inferior. It serves it purpose very well within its design. When built properly with the correct parts ($$$) it will last a long time. Lonnie and Bruce have demontrated this.
If you are willing to spend the money the 200R 4 all the way. But if you are a racer on a budget and dont mind loosing OD the 400 is best.
These parts you list have no effect on how long the direct clutches live. Your clutches are frying because the builder didn't properly coordinate the two events that take place during a 2-3 upshift. The third gear clutches have to be applied at the same time the band is nocked off. If these two events don't happen at the right time the band and the clutches suffer.charliep said:
When these two events are propperly coordinated the direct clutches live well into the nines. The reason you don't flair going into second gear is because there is only one event taking place during a 1-2 upshift. Do you think the material on the band is any tougher than the material on the direct clutches? If the timing of a 2-3 upshift isn't correct there's no clutch on this planet that would servive very long. The most important question to ask is how do we acheive propper timing.
They shure make big claims when you buy them don't they. I agree that they should put there warranty where their mouth is. I totally sympathise with you. It took me fifteen years to get my 2004r to shift good going into thid. So please understand that I'm right there with you.charliep said:
FWIW, I too just made the switch to a TH400 in my '87 GN.
I just cannot justify dumping $2000+ into an inferior transmission.[/QUOTE] Is the 400 ultimately superior to the 2004r? Yes,but not at these power levels. I remember when Quadrajet carbs where refered to as Quadrajunk.Where they junk? Are they junk? No,but they are to some one who doesn't know how to make them work. 2004r transmissions prepared by people who understand how they work handle over 900 Lb/Ft of torque. This story reminds me of my stupid computer. It turned out to be me who was the stupid one. I found out that my computer always does what I tell it to do. Every 2004r that burns direct clutches is doing exactly what its builder is telling it to do.
I just cannot justify dumping $2000+ into an inferior transmission.[/QUOTE] Is the 400 ultimately superior to the 2004r? Yes,but not at these power levels. I remember when Quadrajet carbs where refered to as Quadrajunk.Where they junk? Are they junk? No,but they are to some one who doesn't know how to make them work. 2004r transmissions prepared by people who understand how they work handle over 900 Lb/Ft of torque. This story reminds me of my stupid computer. It turned out to be me who was the stupid one. I found out that my computer always does what I tell it to do. Every 2004r that burns direct clutches is doing exactly what its builder is telling it to do.
There are plenty living at these levels,but I think this is a very reasonable and fair question. Are any of the ones they build living in that environment? Just having hard parts that can handle 800 hp doesn't mean the clutches will survive.charliep said:
Interesting statment above. Are they betting men??? I think yes. It's not unlike what Performance automatic does with their C4's for Fords. They charge a bunch of money for making all the mods possible knowing that most guys will never make the power to hurt one or keep their car long enough or just walk away and bitch if they have a problem. Offer a warranty for life and hope you only get enought back for repair that you still make money. Sounds like betting to me. I personally learned from experience that the C4 can not handle power I was making and I was at a point where I could get 40-50 passes before clutches. Never broke any hard parts just clutches. Unfortunatatly I'm at that learning curve with the 2004R. You might think these can handle 500 HP but they don't. Put them in a healthy street car with some 1/4 mile passes and you hurt clutches.
from my own experience and from what I know others experience a dependable 500 is possible, it's when you go above and beyond the normal 400-500 horse turbo buick, those guys making much more than that are the ones I notice having issues after supposedly having a professionally built transmission
There aren't too many transmissions out there of any make that are going to handle consistent passes in 800 horse cars, be reasonable in your assumptions and you won't be let down.
There aren't too many transmissions out there of any make that are going to handle consistent passes in 800 horse cars, be reasonable in your assumptions and you won't be let down.
TurboTnZ06
Go on red!
- Joined
- May 7, 2002
I daily drive mine and it has tons of torque down low. Granted, I have billet whoo-daddys and hardened this and thats in my BRF2004R built by a Turbo Buick shop in Richardson, Texas.
These trannys have to be built right or they won't last. I probably have close to $1500-2500 in mine, I don't keep track. Been 3 years since a teardown, and that was for a tiny piece of metal that kept me from going into lockup. It has eaten a few governor springs over the past few seasons on 3rd gear deccel, but other than that the lowly 200 has survived 695 rear wheel torque from my 3300# Buick on the dyno...Oh, I broke an axle off the foot brake last time I went racing if that means anything.
Since you already have a BRF valve body, I'd chalk your losses up for experience and send it off to one of the reputable vendors of this forum *cough* PTS or CK *cough* for a built 200 with the good stuff in it, oh and bruce's deep pan is awesome
These trannys have to be built right or they won't last. I probably have close to $1500-2500 in mine, I don't keep track. Been 3 years since a teardown, and that was for a tiny piece of metal that kept me from going into lockup. It has eaten a few governor springs over the past few seasons on 3rd gear deccel, but other than that the lowly 200 has survived 695 rear wheel torque from my 3300# Buick on the dyno...Oh, I broke an axle off the foot brake last time I went racing if that means anything.
Since you already have a BRF valve body, I'd chalk your losses up for experience and send it off to one of the reputable vendors of this forum *cough* PTS or CK *cough* for a built 200 with the good stuff in it, oh and bruce's deep pan is awesome
TurboTnZ06
Go on red!
- Joined
- May 7, 2002
charliep said:
I'm saying I dynoed 594 rwhp and 695 rwtq. On my first pass here at Bradenton I left the line easy, maybe 1-2 psi boost I didn't have much time, ran 10.921 @ 126.95. Next pass, I built about 5-6 psi boost off the foot brake and when I tried to leave the light, I couldn't because I twisted my driver side axle in half and she wasn't moving. Slid some Mosers in there and haven't been to the track since, but I have been daily driving for the past 9 months here in sunny FL. A 10.7 would be nice...tho I need a cage first.
I made about 25 passes in Denver at Bandimere running deep to mid 11's (no cage) at 120-125 mph last couple years.
In Dallas I made a bunch (40-50? I dunno) runs on this tranny with the TE44 going high 11's at 112-115.
I have about 10,000 miles on this tranny in the past 3 years since it was last apart. I had other rides I'd drive for a while so the Buick doesn't have that many miles, although they are hard chargin miles. Two sets of BFG DR's out back and 3 sets of street tires in 10,000 miles..hmmm...Maybe I should run something bigger than 225 60 on the street
Aside from the internal hard parts, a big factor in durabilty between the 200 and the 400 is the size of the clutch material and friction plates. The 400 is larger and ulitimately more durable for that reason. There great tranny builders that build an excellent 2004r transmission that can handle big power. The question becomes for how many passes at a specific power level.
We just got off the phone with our trans guy. I will say this. From the beginning this guy has been the most stand up guy I have ever met. I share his views on making the customer happy and as a business owner myself I respect that. He has gone out of his way to make this right and we are going to take him up his offer to replace the trans with a TH400. This car is a daily driver used for short trips and occasional trips to the drag strip. We are willing to give up the OD to gain the strength of the TH400. I'll keep eveyone updated on our results.