- The Full Story on my 2-Year Transmission Experiences -


- driving everywhere -
May 25, 2001
Joe Burkhart at PTS in Sacramento built my trans on February 19 2001. It was built with all the best parts available at the time (except billet input shaft and trans brake) out of an unrebuilt 1986 GN BRF core that I bought from Bruce.

After installing the transmission myself and driving the car, it developed a hanging 1-2 upshift problem not to long after. I kept touch with Bruce, tried TV adjustments, shifter cable and bracket adjustments, all to no avail.

I got in touch with Jim Testa, who wasn't far away from where I was attending college and setup a get together with him with support from Bruce. Jim spent several hours, after work hours trying to diagnose, test drive and trouble shoot my transmission. We tried swapping in a new GM governor, taking a shim out of the tv boost valve passage, took pressure readings, had Bruce on the phone walking him through things. Jim's help was much appreciated.

The problem still remained and no one could understand what it was or why it was happening. I had to drive the car, it was my only transportation.

During the summer, Bruce referred me to Eric Shertz who was at the time still working out on Long Island. Bruce told me that he'd trust his first born with Eric, so his trust of him was there instilled in me.

Through the help of my friend Steve and Morgan I got the car out to Eric's house in Long Island, had him test drive it and take it for a week. I got a call from Eric and he went over what he found. He took the valve body out, took it apart, checked everything and put it back together and stuck it back in the car. Problem was still there. He took the vb out again went through it, didn't find anything remarkable, but replaced the band which was burnt with a new Borg Warner band, put it all back together, problem still there. He then took a valve body he had there that he knew was good and put that in, problem fixed.

I had bought a new converter from Bruce with my trans, a 12" D5 restalled to 2400-2600, though with my stock turbo it just seemed to spool kinda slower, and then later I swapped on a te44 and it still had about a 2 second lag before it would really come up. Jim Testa, while testing and diagnosing my car earlier had also made mention that the spool-up seemed abnormally slow given the kind of converter stall it was specified to be.

At this time I was working for Manley Performance Products in Lakewood, NJ and on the way home from a crappy day where I screwed up nearly 200 bronze rod bushings for the 2003 Mustang Cobra, I broke the converter. I was accelerating into traffic and lost all forward gears. As soon as I pulled over, I called Bruce first and told him what happened. At a dead standstill the car would slowly creep along but just barely.

I wound up sending him the converter back and his assessment at the time; with photos showing the damage was that the turbine ripped out at the welds from fatigue from likely the heat of the welding process and not from sheer power. My car at the time still had a te44 (set at 17psi) on it and blue top injectors, on the whole, I wasn't making a ton of power to kill a converter, nor was I trying to win a race merging onto the Parkway... it was a fluke happenstance failure.

It took a month to get another converter that was manufactured by the same company who did the 9-11, so the build quality was expected to be better. As result of me not having a car for a month, I couldn't get to work and I lost my job at Manley. I installed the new converter, spool up was still disappointing, but I lived with it so I could just drive. I then got a job with Keith Mease working freelance.

Several people noticed the deplorable and seemingly strange poor spool-up qualities of my car. Keith Mease and Lee Josephs felt it was the converter, Steve Kaminsky thought I had a dead cam lobe. So, all in all, I wasn't sure what it was, but Bruce wasn't gonna budge on restalling it for me, or sending out a replacement.

This past August of 2002, while on the way to work at Keith's, I decided to chase down a Mustang on Route 72. In the process I lost all forward gears and reverse. I called Bruce immediately and told him what happened. He optimistically hoped that it was the converter that went and nothing internal to the trans. I then called Eric, who by then was the new owner of Dynotech Performance in Manville, NJ and he had relocated his trans building capabilities to the new shop. Eric told me to bring him the trans and converter and he'd check it out.

This failure happened on a Friday morning around 11am, Keith came out, picked me up, had my car towed back to my house on his AAA membership, helped me pull the trans out, loaded it into the back of his Trans Am and we drove up to Dynotech and dropped it off after hours behind the gated fence.

Around 10am on Saturday I get a phone call from Eric, "Dan, the trans is ready." Again, Keith drove out to my house, a 45-minute drive, we went up to Dynotech, a 70-mile drive, met up with Eric and went over what happened.

The stock input shaft that was supplied with the transmission broke. Eric put in a billet input shaft, replaced a worn planet set and recommended a new converter. Who was flipping the bill was not addressed, but the parts were put in and a Pat's 2800 stall 12" D5 lock-up was stuck on.

Later that night I got a email from Bruce regarding the authorization of putting those parts in the transmission and who was going to compensate Eric for his labor. At this point, Bruce had been paid in full for a transmission and converter, and had replaced a faulty converter for free.

After Eric replaced these parts, him and I worked out a repayment plan for the bill. I paid some cash and then worked out the rest by me taking care of a project he had at his shop that he needed help with. That work covered my remaining bill for the labor and parts he installed in August of 2002.

Now, just recently I had noticed that my 1-2 upshift was slipping. I called Eric on a Friday afternoon and told him about the problem and he advised for me to try some TV cable adjustments. I followed his instructions, but the end result was still the same, 1-2 upshift slippage. On Monday we made appointment for me to bring the car up the following Monday for him to test drive.

This past Monday, 2.25.03 (just over 2 years after the trans was originally built), I brought the car to Eric. Eric and I went out in my car with him driving, picked up lunch, talked, and he noted that either the band anchor was cocked or possibly the band was burnt up. Eric took it easy on the car driving back to the shop.

Jim works for Eric, but used to work with Fred Vetter when he owned Dynotech. Nonetheless, Jim is a great guy, excellent mechanic and very personable. Jim got my car going on the lift, dropped the pan and then Eric came over to inspect things. From what he could see, the trans needed to be dropped.

Jim and I got to work on pulling the trans out. Jim noticed my converter bolts were a bit loose, and I noticed I lost an intercooler fan blade, an upper radiator hose coolant leak, and I was missing a crank pulley to hub bolt. Jim pulled out the parts stash, hot tanked an IC fan for me, gave me the needed bolts, and I later tightened a loose radiator hose clamp.

Back to the transmission, we had it out in about 10 minutes and on the stand at Eric's workbench. Eric then tore into it while I watched for the first time the guts of my tranny coming out onto the adjacent table.

Eric was very meticulous, inspecting every wear part and going over with me what he was doing and why. He doesn't hide anything and it’s not a big secret. While I could have written down every little thing he explained, I still could not and only a limited few actually have the skill to understand, troubleshoot and build these transmissions. Nonetheless, Eric's explanation and patience with me was worth more than money could buy.

The stock anchor was fine, but the Borg Warner band was shot. That band had been in there since August of 2001 and had endured nearly 30,000 miles worth of driving, 5 strip passes and all the problems after the initial time Eric pulled my original valve body out. The drum surface was acceptable.

Eric offered the option of putting in a billet anchor and the Altos band (which at the time of my trans being built were not available). I elected to put them in since the trans was apart.

Eric also replaced some other wear parts, new filter, and nice thick cork pan gasket, cleaned everything and reassembled the unit. Then Jim and I got it reinstalled in the car. All this was done within roughly 2.5 hours.

Another problem that has plagued me is a bad flare on the upper stainless trans cooler line at the trans. Jim and Eric tried re-flaring it a few times, but no luck, so instead Eric came up with a compression fitting splice into the stainless line that would use a steel flare. It worked perfect.

We got the car off the lift, then Eric and Jim took over with adding new fluid to the correct level. After that was done, Eric asked me if I wanted to go for a ride, I told him to take it out but just don't blow it up ;)

A few minutes later, he comes back into the shop, gives me the thumbs up and tells me it is perfect. I was smiling ear to ear.

Eric and I talked a bit more about what exactly was the cause of the band wear and the initial valve body problem. It turned out, that a while after Eric pulled my original valve body, he went through it again and found that a small piece of old rubber seal, one that should get cleaned out with a regular rebuild had embedded itself in the back of a passage behind a spring and was causing a pressure problem, hence my hanging 1-2 upshift when I first got the transmission.

We closed up shop at 8pm; I thanked Eric and Jim for their incredible help.

Eric has kept close touch with Bruce about every detail to do with this transmission. When Eric told Bruce about this piece of seal stuck in the valve body, Bruce reportedly said, "impossible", Eric told me that its rare, but it happens and something very minor and simple like that can make all the difference and cause a lot of headache. I know Bruce is very anal about cleanliness at his shop and that any mention of contamination found in a brand new, rebuilt unit is near impossible under his building standards, but then, fact of the matter is, that the debris was there and shouldn't have been.

Eric simply said, "**** happens".

I have no hard feelings against Bruce, and I would buy from him again. Bruce spent countless hours talking with me about everything from cars to family. He is a great guy and despite what happened with my transmission, it was a fluke problem that eluded even the best of technicians out there.

Jim Testa was incredibly generous with helping me after hours at his job, both with swapping in his known good parts for trial and error, and just being a great friend in his advice and interest in seeing me not waste my money on things I don't need. I've put 40k on the car in two years, so I've driven the hell out of it Jim :)

Eric Shertz has been exemplary in how he's handled this whole situation. He has always been up front, honest and forthcoming. He is master of what he does, but doesn't seek make you feel intimidated. He shows you everything, explains how and why things work and makes sure that when you leave, you're happy. Also, he's a great friend and someone I totally trust.

Jim, who works with Eric at Dynotech helped me out so much with all my questions, and going through things, and letting me work along side him and learning how things are done. He's another great person and someone I'd consider a great friend.

So on the way home from Dynotech last night, the transmission was shifting textbook perfect. I felt great and was just really happy that this whole chapter was now in the past and I have pretty much one of the best-built transmissions out there with help from the best people and friends I've had the good fortune to know.

So, this is the whole story, as its been experienced, explained and driven by me. It has been a tumultuous 2 years, but despite the pitfalls and difficulties, I believe I've gained a lot of positive experience and garnered incredible, lasting friendships as result.
Dan I have some ?'s about the D-5 PTS convertor you had . Please email me
Mark Wallace
This thread is the reason I wonder if it's possible to get a solid rebuilt tranny that will last 2-3 years.

Does anyone build a good, RELIABLE tranny that doesn't have all the problems like the one listed above?

<- skeered

What I've learned through my experience with this transmission is that Yes, build quality is very important. That includes quality of installed parts and quality and proficiency in technique by the builder.

Also, if your car is ONLY a drag car, with minimal to no street driving, the trans experiences less wear and tear. At the strip, the trans primarily sees WOT Upshifts. Whereas on the street, the trans is constantly seeing all kinds of throttle conditions, stop and go, all this amount to more wear and tear in comparison.

Nonetheless, this doesn't mean you can't have a transmission that lasts, fulfilling both street and strip duties relaiably.

As it is, since my transmission left PTS in California 2 years ago, it has been thoroughly gone through by Eric. So now, the transmission in terms of build-quality is result of Eric's work. A portion of the hard parts in the trans are still original to Bruce.

Another piece of advice; its great to mail-order for a transmission. However, having the guy who built it accessible and able to drive your car is invaluable. Eric is not very far from me and him being able to actually drive the car and look at things with his own eyes has helped this whole experience from being any longer than it had to of been, sans me needing to drive the car (its my only transportation outside of walking).

I have more to add in the next week or two regarding that second converter I got from Bruce as replacement for the first one that failed. Its been tested by someone else and they experienced the same results. More on that in a week or two.
I find it disturbing a stock BRF can go 100k plus with moderate abuse, yet I don't see a whole lot of aftermarket rebuilds that go well, and aren't riddled with problems.. :(
Engines and transmissions are no different IMHO.
Chevrolet used to claim they could install all 8 pistons into a small block Chevy in less than 30 seconds.
How can a mass produced engine built under time constraints, budgets and to not so exact specs last over 100k miles; yet that $4K overhaul the local performance machine shop did only last 5k miles? Transmissions are the same black art. They were built under the same constraints and yet they can last a long time.
I agree with you Dan on being able to find a local shop to deal with and I feel your pain as I have been down that road many times.
i'm not sure about a stock BRF going 100k with moderate abuse. I suppose it really depends on the kind of power you're putting through it and how well you maintain it.

A transmission in a Honda I would have no doubt of going 100k+, but in a performance vehicle like a Buick, Mustang, Corvette, I think its less likely if you exact and excercise the performance out of the car on a regular basis. Stuff breaks eventually.
Dan, whoever has it..........

hell throw it away. When I am up and running I will send you a replacement. END OF THAT CRAP!! OK?

And in a new trans back it 87 , it didnt have the debris that was packed in cooler or anywhere else for that matter. All parts are new and at tolerence. I will build anyone a new trans with brand new parts but a stock rebuild with EVERY NEW part will cost you about 8K if you can find every single part.
On the subject of mail order...
How about the other 400 or so that are out there? What about all the people who are ecstaitic? Only 4 maybe 5 problems in 400? Holy Mackrel Batman... I will take them odds all day long!!!!:D :D

As far Dan's deal.... Eric will tell you he even had trouble finding what happened in Dans trans. He found it later and it was a piece of rubber the size of a pubic hair about 11/32's long. It had lodged itself into the 1-2 shift valve train. Once Eric found it , even he was amazed. It worked flawless in the test car and who knows where that piece of crap came from. My stuff is insanely clean, ask anyone. Your trans had a stock band, (That was all available at the time,)
You know Dan... You act like you got screwed and all you got was help from all around. 3 people tried in your case to assist. You whine about this converter thing and all you had to do was relay what was happening. Even if I said "no way" at the time, maybe something aint quite right, but sheesh... communicate. Bruces converter this, bruces converter that. Damn I am tuired of this. You should have bought a 9X11 and forgot it. Anyway, ity just seems like it is getting old and damn it is not like we all drive these cars like taking Grandma to church. We build them we beat them. Your band failure, along with others, (in other words, used to happen alot, WAS THE EXACT REASON I GOT INVOLVED WITH ALTO!!!!

Yes Eric is a great guy, Very smart and mythotical, and I probobly have more respect for him then you do, but do not do it at MY exspense. He still needs our stuff to do what he does and your first trans was put together perfect , a tiny little piece of what Eric and I think we determined to be a tiny pubic hair sliver of L&R C/S press in seal that may have cut on case boss. Could have happened to any builder anywhere in the country in any application. Your trans did not fail, it had a "cold" to relate to human issue. Pnumonia to be exact... contamination of a part that needs precise movement.

Thanks Dan... After the month I have had, you gave me an oppertunity to vent alittle.
You have NO idea how much I thank you.:D

See this post:

I will take this opportunity to step up and side with Dan on the convertor issue.
His first convertor came apart. You sent him another. The stall speed was totally wrong. This was verified by myself, Keith Mease several other guys who also know Turbo Buicks such as Steve Kaminski, Jim Testa and even Eric Schertz. The fact that you insisted that it was his car and not the your convertor was totally wrong and we all felt the situation was handled incorrectly.I had worked in retail for many years and learned that sometimes you have to suck up the pride and make the customer happy.
I will not turn this into a vendor bashing session because you have help me and many others many times. You got all pissed off at me several months ago when I was looking for a convertor for my car. Well, this is the reason why. Dan spent well over $2k with you and this is what happened to him. I was just very hesitant to take a chance after this. If you dont believe me about the people who drove Dan's car, then you can call them yourself.
We are all still friends and understand that accidents and mistakes happen.......even with the best of the best. We are human beings and not machines.
I agree...

And I am not always right either.
I am still willing to make rigfht. I do not need tyo drive anybodys anything.
We all have a bad day once ion a while..:)

All I am saying is lets get it handled , make whoever has it happy and friggin MOVE ON.

Now this was what 2 years ago?
And I am still willing to assist?
What more could you ask of me?

to date...

to date, I've spent pretty close to the penny $3658.39 for the trans that is in my car with converter (that includes a $550 core charge since the trans that was in my car when I bought it was not a BRF).

Actuality is, if Eric and Jim Testa did charge for their labor and all the "little" things they adjusted and added to just make the unit that much better every time, I'd be well over $4500 in this transmission.

Now, I don't know about anyone else who spends money like that on a transmission for a street car that has seen a drag strip 5 times in the last two years and hasn't gotten anything less than a mid-13 timeslip or even remotely better than a 2.0 60'...

..but, since I've spent more money on this transmission then anything else I've ever spent on any car I've ever owned, and I lost a job as result of a parts failure to do with it (converter), I've paid close attention to how this whole process has unfolded.

As I clearly stated in my writing, whenever I had a problem, even before calling AAA, my Mom or #911, I called Bruce. If you think I'm trying to disrespect you, then that's an issue with you. You've been paid and for all intensive purposes, unless I move to California, any further work on this transmission is out of your physical hands.

Let's not try and quantify who trusts or respects who more or less. Every time there was some idiosyncrasie with my transmision, irregaurdless of cause or circumstance, Eric Shertz corrected it in a very timely manner. That's the fact of the matter.

Mistakes, flukes, debris what have you, happen, often I feel like if its gonna happen, its gonna happen to me lol, but I've developed faith through all this, that even after the amount of time that has elapsed since my trans left California, that specialists who really care about thier product and quality of service see things through until the customer is satisfied.

As for the converter issues. 1st converter (12" D5 lock-up Orange) was noted by several people as just being to tight, especially even at the time on a stock-turboed car. I clearly remember getting into conversations with Bruce on how that converter just didn't seem right. I certainly do not recall anyone offering me a restall, or exchange so I could keep the down time to a minimum. That converter failed.

- These pictures were sent to me by Bruce upon inspection of that first converter:





The replacement converter was built by TCS of Lake Havasu, AZ. It was spec'ed to be a 2600 stall converter. By this time I had installed a te44, and by most accounts with people who have a original stock d5 converter, this turbo spools just as quick as stock if not a bit faster. When I put in the new replacement converter, which Bruce sent for free, the results were still uncharacteristic of what was thought it should have been. The spool was abhorrantly slow.

This past summer, I break the stock input shaft, and as a preventative and a good practice measure, since internal work was going to need to be done on the trans, I replaced the converter again, this time $295 for a Pat's 2800 D5 LU, with the other parts and labor from Eric. After it was reinstalled in the car, the car was a totally different animal, it turned into a animal lol I took Keith and my friend Morgan out in it after we reinstalled the trans/converter and we all noticed the huge difference in spool-up and well, fun-factor :D

That second converter I sold to qwknuf6 who responded to my original post here. Well, as it turns out, he also experienced unusually poor spool-up problems with the converter as well. He has a stock engine with a 210/210 cam, stock IC, stock rear gear, stock trans, te60 with .63 a/r and he told me the spool was terrible.

So I called Eric and told him about what's been up with my old converter and if he could get me some pricing from Protorque or Pat's for restalling it. I appreciate Eric looking into it for me, but I went a step further to make this old news Right.

I called up a contact at TCS and told them about the situation and that I was NEVER offered a restall on this particular converter. So, now my old converter is going back to TCS for inspection and possible restalling to the new customer's vehicle's specs for FREE. I was deserved this corrective measure, but it wasn't offered to me, it just plain was not.

Eric sure wasn't told by Bruce that I could get the old one restalled, otherwise he would have relayed that to me to help me save another $295 on a new converter.... but the other thing taking into account when that converter was replaced, is that I needed to drive the car, so time was a factor and Eric had the new Pats converter there on the shelf. So I was back running within 24 hours of the original breakage.

So now, I have a transmission that is operating perfectly. The problems with my old converter are going to be addressed and very likely corrected and MY customer will be satisfied because while at the time I was just looking to offload something I wasn't totally sure was working the way it should have, now I'm making good on it, and on the whole, everything else is fine.

I wrote this whole thing so people who I recommend to Bruce and Eric (that would be basically everyone I've met lol) now have understanding of what happend to my transmission and that it is a rare occurance in terms of what problems plagued it and that despite my trans woes, the vast majority of work that comes as a result of Eric and Bruce's work is excellent.
Ok I get it but..

The reason Eric and Jim didnt charge you was cause I settled up with them. Their time is worth something and not to get into specifics but BOTH were compensated by me. If Lonnie does a warranty job or works on a customer out there, you think I do not compensate him? He even adds in travel:D Do you think He does this out of the goodness of his heart? Now dont get me wrong, we all scratch each others back at one time or another and give each other a break but nothing and nobodys time is ever free. And, It down right shouldn't be. :D

Verbose post or what!?

Alls I know is that as soon as Bruce is comfortably settled in his new digs and a little caught up I'm send my 200 4R 3000 miles for PTS to do. There are a few other trannie shops I'd trust--those using PTS parts and recommended via phone by Bruce or Mark--but none of those are anywhere near me.

Bruce, just don't play with yourself while you're building it, I don't want one of those pubic hairs in mine!
Re: Verbose post or what!?

Originally posted by Clay Thompson
Alls I know is that as soon as Bruce is comfortably settled in his new digs and a little caught up I'm send my 200 4R 3000 miles for PTS to do. There are a few other trannie shops I'd trust--those using PTS parts and recommended via phone by Bruce or Mark--but none of those are anywhere near me.

Bruce, just don't play with yourself while you're building it, I don't want one of those pubic hairs in mine!

Maybe my friend was picking his teeth after a eating at the Y. This thread needs a little humor. I am going to send you a surgery mask to wear in your Trans operating room . LOL
Let me ask, without Bruce and the ideas and parts he has brought to the table, where would the 200R4 be today as far as strenght. He has done a lot for our hobby and we are luckey to have him. Sometimes things happen to the best of us and Bruce I believe he has and would go the extra mile for us. I can tell you the guy has taken a big chance to move and expand. This has stressed him greatly lately. I do not believe he would ever wrong anyone.
Originally posted by Taffy
Sounds like some guy was trying to buy the cheap stuff but ended up having to pay the price. Why not buy the good stuff right off the bat and not have to worry about it. Kinda like telling Bruce to "freshen up" your stock trans to go behind a 600 HP TR. That is dumb. I bought the good stuff from the beginning and have not looked back since. Have not had a problem.
If your trans had 30K on it, I hope you replaced the filter AT LEAST TWICE. I am sure that you did not. Oh well, it is YOUR trans. I learned that lesson a long time ago when I first met Bruce. He told me to replace the filter. Too bad it was too late.
Bruce....You the Man.:D :D
Dude, open your eyes and read the damn thread! Dan spent over $3600 with Bruce! The convertor that came apart was one of Bruce's. It wasnt like he had a stock trans behind a 600 horse engine. More like a built trans behind a basically stock engine.
Eric, if you'd like to see what is in my tranny and who has done what since purchased:


..just take out all the notations of Eric's work and you'll still have Bruce's basic street/strip trans of 2001. (with blue plates, rollerized, billet forward drum, and billet servo)

As of now, I have basically the best parts money can buy sans the extra deep aluminum pan, trans brake, Bruce's billet valves, and rear sump. Also, with all due respect, between Bruce and Eric I've had the best specialists going through it.

As for the filter and fluids they've been changed out 5 times in the last 2 years. Changed every time the trans came out for service or have a internal failure, converter or otherwise.

Overall, I'm not looking to burn bridges or piss people off. The whole point of me posting was to explain a fluke, rare occurance and just get everyone to see how the process went and now where I am today.

Bruce..and especially Eric know how many people I recommend to them. My friend Carl just had his trans rebuild in his GN last week by Eric and put on a Pro-Torque 3200 stall converter and his response about how it turned out, "awesome".

I wouldn't have spent the money I did, despite the sale/deal Bruce and Joe were offering at the time if I hadn't known of Bruce and read all the positive things I had about him on the board and GNTType.org.

The car has been even more fun to drive, though I've had to be careful because of all the crap weather we've had here. When you're into it about mid-throttle, the shifts are nice and firm and kinda even get the rear to kick-out a little bit. Its a fun feeling and I'm enjoying it for as long as I can :D ... and NO I haven't even gone to WOT yet since having it redone on the 2.24.03, nothing more than half-3/4 throttle really... i don't want to kill myself, or the car.

Eventually, I'll step upto a Pro-Torque 3000 stall or maybe 3200 stall, but for now the 2800 d5 is satisfying.
Over the past 3 years, I have had the opportunity to spend waaay more than $4500 on my trans. 2 "builds" by the "so called" expert local guy, Helped a buddy that does transmissions for GM one time, and once myself, before I sent it to Bruce. I would get the trans built and things would be great for about 4 or 5 WOT passes and something would go to poo. Clutch pack slipping, no 4th gear, pump explode, etc. I think there are lots more guys out there with tons of cash in their trans that haven't complained (or vocalized publicly) about the cost of stuff when things go wrong. You gotta pay to play. By what you described Bruce and Eric took care of you, but your initial post started out like a rant. If perahps it had started out more happy/light hearted, or with praise for finding and solving the problem, less pepole would be arguing, Bruce's blood pressure would subside, and champaign would fall from the heavens:D . If however you sincerely felt like you got the shaft from a vendor and have exhausted all possible courses of action to solve the problem privately with them, THEN, you post politely, ask for help to see if someone else has the experience to fix your problem. I see too much vendor "bad mouthing" lately on many boards. If the product quality is not up to standards, comment on it in detail. If service doesn't meet expectations, say why you feel that is the case. Just be polite and selective about how you go about it. In many cases, the problems are out of the vendors hands, but they usually can take steps to fix things even if they are not obligated to. My point is, some folks cought a bad air about your post (myself included) that perhaps wasn't warranted (or intended). In the future (and this goes for everybody) please take care that all perceptions of a statement are clearly defined from the start so no one takes it wrong. -Chuck *
*trying to give friendly advice, w/o whizzing on anyones shoes:)
AMEN Chuck..!!!

And then again, I understand Dan's (darkf8t's) frustration.
He is a nice kid and sometimes things go array. However, he was handled by three VERY qualified people and I would do anything it took to make Dan happy. I already said I would give whoever it is that has the "bad" converter a new one. WTF else can I offer after 2 years?
I took it as a rant at first too but Dan spoke with me and I am comfortable with the outcome. And yes, I am VERY stressed right now. Still NO PHONES.... I simply just dont get it. What if we or us in this field ran our company like the phone company. You get this or tough crap. I still can't believe their customer service. Talk about SUCK!!!!!

its all cool Bruce, I just wanted people to understand what happend so when I recommend you or eric i don't have to pull a epic out my a$$ when they tell me, "oh, but you have had problems with yours..."

as for the phones, Brian Weaver is going through the same BS down in Baltimore, MD at his new shop.. Verizon makes millions and it takes them a year and a day to hook up a phone lol