this is why you need to learn to do the work on your own

[TT/Ameasap]

Breakaway would be more to loosen because of static friction.

 

[Toby_Goodmk]

I met with the engineers at ARP at the SEMA show last year and asked the main question. How much over spec can the stud fastener be used. He claimed safely 10% over the TQ value is no sweat at all. He even encouraged 85 lb on my application. I also have contact Cometic about them claiming no re-torque.

 

[usetaboost]

I use arp head bolts and the shitty gaskets that people always used to say don't work. Clean all threads with a chaser, not a tap. Make sure bolts are clean and dry. Thread sealer and light brush of engine oil under the head. One other thing while torquing multiple bolts that require pattern is to not exceed more than 3 steps to get to max torque. I always do my third step at 80ftlbs and keep checking each bolt to ensure each one is torqued. Working industrial maintenance you learn some things about fasteners and heat cycles. BTW, never retorqued a single bolt on any motor and never had a problem. Except for the pesky rag that snuck in lol

 

[BEATAV8]

Hmmmm.... well I just walked out to the garage to an old GN motor I have on stand. Picked a head stud. Pulled it up to 50ft*lb with a sweeping motion and *click" while in motion. Reverse the wrench and loosen. No click. It even feels noticeably weaker than it does during the tightening pull.

And yes, my wrench does click in both directions.

Give it a try gents. See for yourselves.

If the fastener is rusty, well then that's another story.....

 

[achalmersman]

doesnt matter
if it was at 80 it would take more than 80 initial to loosen

I always believed the same until I purchased both 3/8" and 1/2" snap-on digital torque wrenches which can measure breakaway torque in either direction. I always believed breakaway in the reverse direction would be higher than set torque on a fastener but I have yet to see it after testing on multiple fasteners. If was always less when loosening than the fastener was torqued to.

I will say I haven't measured if on head bolts / nuts yet but I would ASSume it would respond the same way as other types of fasteners I have experimented on.

 

[Toby_Goodmk]

I like the guys at Cometic. Stand up gentlemen. I did remove cometic names/email addresses for confidentiality reasons. This even further reinforces the need for Re-torque that has been covered and stressed

Here is an email over my recent issues read from bottom up.

XXXXX,


Thanks for the feedback. I collected my thoughts and came to an assumption as many others In the turbo buick community that a re-torque cannot hurt. So, this is something that I will be practicing on the new set. I had a machinists straight edge across the block as well as the heads Sunday. I could not slide .0015 feeler under the straight edge so I feel we are ok on the surface. One other thing I forgot to mention. Barker sprayed a copper spray on both sides of the gasket. From what I have read, this is not needed, nor recommended?


I appreciate the donation of another set and thank you endlessly. I’ll buy you a beer at this year’s SEMA show!


Can you send them to me as soon as possible?


I have the GS nationals show in Bowling Green KY in and want to get this thing as ready as I can


Address is


LKQ/Keystone

11950 Mosteller Rd

Cincinnati, oh 45241



Thanks again!!!


From:]
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2015 9:08 AM
To: Toby Pawlaczyk
Subject: RE: Head gaskets needed


Hi Toby,

Sorry to hear about your situation. While I cannot comment on the exact reason for the failure (there are many things that can cause a head gasket to fail), I can tell you that the torque value you saw at 65lbs seems pretty low. Technically, your builder is right in telling you the gaskets do not require a re-torque. However, in engine combinations that are a traditional 4 bolt per cylinder layout I personally always feel like it is a good idea to do the re-torque. It’s not that the gaskets specifically call for it but in these combinations after a fresh build, settling occurs and the effective clamp load can be reduced pretty significantly after a few heat cycles. In some small block Ford applications I have had customers report of gaining nearly an extra half turn on the studs.


In your case I would also inspect the head and block for flatness in the area where the gasket was blown to make sure everything is still to spec. If everything is cool then I can gladly supply you with another set of head gaskets.




Cometic Gasket, Inc

8090 Auburn Rd.

Concord, OH 44077

1-800-752-9850

www.shopengineparts.com ßNew Online Store




CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or exempt from disclosure by law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you are strictly prohibited from printing, storing, disseminating, distributing or copying this message. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from any computer. Neither this information block, the typed name of the sender, nor anything else in this message is intended to constitute an electronic signature, unless a specific statement to the contrary is included in this message. Cometic Gasket, Inc.8090 Auburn Rd.Concord, Ohio 44077


From: Toby Pawlaczyk [mailto:TobyP@LKQCORP.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2015 9:39 PM
To:
Subject: RE: Head gaskets needed
Importance: High


Hi again


Unfortunately I am contacting you on less than pleasant terms. You graciously supplied me a pair of head gaskets C5691-060 for my Grand National earlier this year. I come across a drivability issue which prompted me to check compression. I had low compression on #1 cylinder. The #1 gasket area was blown. So Immediately I looked at torque. I had my builder assemble the engine. I am using ARP head studs. I noticed that torque values were at 65lb. He claims he torqued them to 80 (MFG as well as ARP’s recommendation.) I am using moderate boost values of 15-20lb. I am not running anything serious on the engine. The surface of the cylinder heads and the block were conditioned at 50RA.


So the first thing that came to my mind was a re-torque was not performed by me, he originally stated upon delivery of the engine that Cometic Gaskets do not require a re-torque. My second thought was the builder did not apply the last round of torque sequence. In any means I am caught in the middle because he says he performed things right, and I always re-torque head gaskets, its ironic the first time I do not do a re-torque I have a head gasket fail.


Why do you feel we had a failure?


The shop that did the work is reputable, and seems to order from you on a consistent basis. His name is Barker Machine and Fabrication, Owensville, ohio


How can I get another set of gaskets made and how much would my cost be? I need to get a pair as soon as time allows.


If it means anything I have the other gaskets still if needed for R&D



From: Toby Pawlaczyk
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2015 11:08 AM
To:
Subject: RE: Head gaskets needed


Received, and much thanks!


Regards,


Toby Pawlaczyk

LKQ Product Line Management

11950 Mosteller Rd, Cincinnati, OH 45241

Office 513-672-8771

Cell 513-315-4005

 

[TurboBuRick]

IMO Something had to interfere with a positive clamp or the decks are not true or just not torqued to proper spec. Once the head is torqued what would make it loosen up to require a re torque? You have steel shim gaskets clamped in between a head and a block with arp head studs. Whats going to move?? The reason others like RJC recommends re toque is because of the sealant they use. It clearly interferes with positive clamping and after a few heat cycles they loosen up. Thats not saying RJC is bad choice but that's why they require re torque from time to time.

I put cometics on dry. Never use any sealant. I've tried copper spray on the recommendation of some guru and have gotten similar results as the op. It has no place on a cometic head gasket. Don't believe me that's fine but believe the manufacturer.

I use the manufacturers recommended procedure. Clean and dry. Cometics have a viton coating that will not work once other stuff like copper spray or silicone sealant is used. Anything you put on the gasket will interfere with a positive clamp.

1 thing you can take to the bank is theres always a limit to how far they can be pushed. They wont blow but will start to leak once you have found that limit. These motors were never designed to do what we do with them. The missing head bolt at 12 and 6 o clock is where problems arise.

 

[turbobitt]

OK, here ia the million dollar question. I was thinking of converting over to the cometics from the crapy old tech felpro's that sucsessfully worked in the 8's with no retorque and no noticable fastener loosening. I do have a procedure I follow on the initial setup but thats another story. If I do make the switch to Cometics am I going to invite issues ? I thought these were the best gaskets out there ?? Should I not bother ?? The sesnitivity to gasket thickness and different results has me woried. Sounds like the .040 work OK were as the .060 don't ? Some much positive discussion on the coper spray and now hearing its not good has me more confused. Would like to see more discussion on this to learn more.
AG.

 

[Jerryl]

My take on cometics and some applies to stock style gasket;
-If any sealant is used, a retorque is definately required.
-If installed dry, a retorque is a good way to verify. Only takes a few minutes.
-If the bolt/stud threads are not burnished, clamping force will more than likely diminish over some time pending operating condition.
-If there is foreign material between the gasket layers (aka as dirt . . . And there is!), the seal may be compromised.
-If an incorrect torque/lube/method is used, the sealing ability will be comprimised under xxx operating condition.
-If there is detonation, nothing about the gasket or installation matters.

Toby . . Great to see cometics is willing to work towards resolution. Safe to say that 99.99% does not have the same leverage?

Again . . Mostly an opinion as I have no data or scientific proof.

 

[Toby_Goodmk]

spoke with the machine shop. Which I want to make people aware. AND, I am not trying to slam any business. However, If I feel I was done wrong....and can help someone else... I will "whistle blow."

Barker performance and Machine, owensville ohio 513-724-3288

He talked with me this morning.
* Brought out the blue print.

1. Heads torqued to 75lb with moly. Claims this is what the ARP spec sheet calls for. WRONG, albeit only 5lb...but the instructions say 80.
2. He uses copper spray on everything. Motors that are full blown 2500 hp running 50lb boost, no issues with copper spray. Yet....cometic says not to use it I guess he needs to do R & D for these MFG
3. 60-65lb did not make my head gasket blow. It was a lean condition, (which could be possible) but the smoking gun is the improper installation process.


So, He left me high and dry again. I wont get too entirely off the topic about how he installed standard main bearings in this build and the oil pressure was shit, changed them to .001...issue solved. But then as well....he blamed it on my oil pump this March. I guess now that I have 20psi hot idle I now have is just a fluke?

I asked for 50$ worth of gaskets....just as a ways of saying...I am not too entirely sure what happened, but I am willing to work with you.....NOPE!

So.... burned???? yes. Learned??? yes.

I needed to vent, thanks for your ears!! lol!!



Turbobitt, I would not hesitate (which I am not) to use cometics again. Even if I had to pay for them. I feel the onus was on improper installation. I feel they do enough research and testing to do well with a mild engine as mine.


Jerryl. Yes I agree. They are forking out 275$ worth of gaskets for free....no issue. That in my personal opinion is listening and working with a customer in need. I do have some pull...yes. Any distributor that can represent their customer would have the same result...IMO. Also, I have never recorded a KR, so we are good there. Pistons, walls, plugs all looked good.

TruboBuRick, I agree 100% with everything you say. If the dumbass uses copper spray sealant, there is the smoking gun! I did run a professional machinists straight edge across all the decks, and surfaces.....I cannot slide a .0015 feeler under at any point. The deck and heads were 50RA surfaced and I'd say from the inspection of the machine work, its clean, neat and done correctly.

 

[dyermullet]

Everyone who is successfully retorquing, what do you recommend for thread sealant that won't start leaking after the re torque.

Thanks

 

[TurboBuRick]

I don't think the copper spray was the cause of the situation. There are plenty of reputable guys that use it with success but right or wrong I put them on dry like the manufacturer suggests.

Torque spec will depend on the lube used. Some old school guys use engine oil. I remember years ago ARP lube came in a white package and had a different torque spec. And If I remember correctly it was 7olbs. Point is the machine shop got the spec from somewhere. They build a lot of different engine and almost always have to refer to manufacturer specs. There are just too many numbers to remember. Some heads on other motors only get 60ft lbs. There is a chance they had a nos studs with the white package lube, idk. Ask them for the sheet that came with the studs. That would tell you.

Everyone who is successfully retorquing, what do you recommend for thread sealant that won't start leaking after the re torque.

Thanks

Most guys that are re torquing are using studs. The block to stud seal is not sacrificed.

 

[TurboBob]

dowels too tall? bolts or studs?

Bob

 

[Toby_Goodmk]

never thought about the dowels, will check. I am using studs

 

[robztheman]

dowels too tall? bolts or studs?

Bob

Good point the double washer Studs too long.

 

[Pronto]

I had that issue. 2 washers made the difference for good clamping.

 

[Toby_Goodmk]

crazy, i will have to look at the studs and threads to see if there is enough to clamp down. I cannot imagine them not having enough threads

 

[Lil Truck]

It occurs on the on each end of the head, (front & back) of the block. You will notice when you look they are set deeper in the head than the others. I think this is covered in a sticky head gasket installation with studs!

 

[Toby_Goodmk]

It occurs on the on each end of the head, (front & back) of the block. You will notice when you look they are set deeper in the head than the others. I think this is covered in a sticky head gasket installation with studs!

omg, cannot believe this. Why wouldnt ARP catch this and make changes?

 

[Lil Truck]

omg, cannot believe this. Why wouldnt ARP catch this and make changes?

I believe it mostly happens on cut heads, I had extra washers so I used them to be safe!