Total Seal Rings

[Intercooler]

Originally posted by Shaun Tiede
Some may feel that my comments with regard to the Total Seal issue can be considered hijacking. My post here is not geared for all of you, just those who are having problems with rings. I am still in the Cam business. I was with UltraDyne for 13 years. I got into the Engine Blueprinting business because so many cam customers wanted me to work their motors too.
There is one thing that no one mentions here and that very few in the engine business understand but is extreemly critical. That is Honing. Very few(including Engine Builders) own a Profilometer or even know what a profilometer is. Most hone blocks the same way. Most who have done it for 30 years also say they still do it the same today. Rings have changed. Materials and process has changed. Tolerances of rings and pistons have also come a very long way even in the last 10 years. What is interesting to see is the surface finishes the so called trick hone produces. Funny thing is that I can re finish a Comp Eliminator motor with less than 30 passes on it because it is guzzling oil, but after I finish it, it makes 35 more HP on average, and it runs for 150 passes. In terms of Ra's and Rz's, it is way off from what Total Seal and the other Ring people suggest. Usually I see Ra numbers of 6 instead of 18, and I see Rz numbers like 80-100 instead of 170 or better. It is way too shallow and way too slick. THey wonder why it smokes like a Grill when they go to the Dyno with it! Slick hones don't make power and they don't last. Sure they spin easier on the bench with a torque wrench. They also coke the cylinder with oil because they have a hard time controlling oil (they smoke.) 400 Grit stones are great for a final finish using very light pressure and only a couple of strokes because it will help the surface finish without killing the Rz's (the depth.) To have any luck with a Total Seal ring whatsoever, you have to have clean honing oil, and you need to hone with a soft bonded 220 grit stone Like an EHU 518 at high pressure (60AMPS for you CK10 users). Then you finish with a soft bonded 280 grit stone like a JUH623 at still high pressure. If you must use a 400 grit afterwards (818 or 820), just kiss it with very light pressure for 3 strokes. THen clean with ATF then Lacquer thinner. Oil it with a reall light oil or Quick Seat. If you don't hone it like this, I assure you there will be problems just like others have reported even in this thread! A hone has to be deep to hold oil. A hone is a bearing area. If you hone light and with smooth stones, you won't have any bearing area and won't have oil retention, and the ring will wear FAST though it will be slow to seat. ALso, the harder the block material is, the softer the stone has to be for it to cut. This is why a stone used for honing a production block won't even scratch a Hard Sleeve or an aftermarket race block. You will find when you hone the way I have suggested, your motor will seal up instantly, you will have great oil control even with light oil (I hate 20W50 and so does GM) and low tension rings without vacuume pumps, you will make more power, and you will have a much longer running set of rings. Just look at Detroit. NONE of their cylinder finishes are smooth. They are very aggressive! Your 10,000 mile motor that was re honed and now having 10,000 miles on it, having almost no visible cross hatch, is almost surely a result of a very light cutting pressure with a fine stone.
The other thing you can't do if you want success is install the ring by hand. I.E. twisting it onto the piston. You have to expand it, or you will turn it into a lock washer, it will spin in the bore and it will also not be sealed in all areas because it is twisted. JUst disassemble the rings and inspect the wear pattern. You will see.

Have you checked the radial clearance between the ring and the ring land with a feeler guage? It should be no more than .002.

Awesome piece of writing! Going to print this out. Thanks!

 

[iamjeff]

i dipped mine up to the skirt in marvel mystery oil before putting them in.

-jeff

 

[jjkv]

Originally posted by Race Jace
Here is our recipe for the total seal rings. We have done dozens of motors this way without a single problem. (These instructions are for the non-automotive machinist.)

What Shaun said seems to be on track to us although it is far more in depth for the average turbo buick enthusiast to follow. You can't give your automotive machinist that kind of instructions without offending him. That is why I suggest telling him to give you a plasma molly finish for the bores.
At assembly, whipe the cylinders with lacquer thinner and install the piston/ring assembly with only assembly lube on the skirt of the piston. The rings and bore are dry. No oil on them.

The motor we went 9.83 with at this year’s nats we built in 1998 and it has 20k mi on it without any freshening. It is the same motor we have always had in our car. It still seems to be competitive after all these years.

Dry install is the key.

Jason,

Thanks for your recipe. I believe it's all in the honing of the cylinder. These rings seem to need special handling.

John

 

[Shaun Tiede]

Total Seal

We are all smart here. You all hopefully appreciate detailed info even if you are not Machinists or engine builders. I like to assume everyone is smart. But, forgive me for being so in depth. I am used to posting on Engineering posts, and I have to hold my mouth in a certain manner because that seems to be the only way most of them (Engineers)understand. There are plenty of them that seem to get off by challenging anything I or anyone else say's with little to argue in most cases besides theory. They are so edumacated that most of them can't see the forrest through the trees. They can't seem to deviate from any written text. I am also amused by how many of them are blown away when I say something only to then turn up their noses at me when they ask me if I am an Engineer and I tell them "not in terms of any formally degreed one any way." Not all of them are like that, though. I apologize if I offended Anyone here.

 

[jjkv]

Thanks to all the knowledgeable people out there willing to take the time and give valuable details.

Since I did send a post to Jason Cramer, I just wanted to follow up on a reply.

It is good to find others having or have experience with those gapless rings.

John

 

[iamjeff]

i wonder which semester it is that i take "Arrogance 101". Shaun, where are you in austin?

-jeff

 

[EightSecV6]

 

[NJTurbo]

Originally posted by EightSecV6

Man you are really blinking tonight

Intercooler you got a woody

 

[EightSecV6]

MOTORS are electric, we build ENGINES....I dont even know where to start!
Basically, Speed Pro moly rings are used in the most powerful Buick V6 engines IN THE WORLD and I have the timeslips to prove it!

 

[Intercooler]

Bill,

Where is the oil catch can located on that unit? LOL


Ask Travis where his is

 

[EightSecV6]

Originally posted by Intercooler
Bill,

Where is the oil catch can located on that unit? LOL


Ask Travis where his is

Dry sump engines dont have catch cans or breathers for that matter! Travis doesnt have have ANY blow by issues as I have posted before, his issue is with splash.....wanna race?

 

[Intercooler]

My Honda vs. your Geo

 

[Shaun Tiede]

Molly Rings

The Honing stuff I mention is also for other rings, too. Not just Total Seal. What I stated previously is especially critical for hi cylinder pressure/heat engines. As pressures and temps increase, (including the increases in cylinder pressures obtained from faster/more efficeint burning chamber designs and optimized spark plug placement in the chamber,) the bearing area/hone of the cylinder becomes more and more important. Just look at today's typical finishes in Pro-Stock and Blown Alky/Fuel Engines.They are very aggressive compared to ten years ago. Take my word for it that looking at a finish/honed cylinder is very deceiving to the naked eye. Looks good doesn't mean it is. I have learned this the hard way.
As for Chrome rings, they are very durable especially in dusty areas, but they don't have any oil retaining capabilities like Molly rings do, so they are even less forgiving to smooth finishes. You will see the industry changing over to steel rings very soon, so heads up on the new issues sure to arise in the Honing arena.
I have conversations with plenty of racers who have oil control issues in Circle Track and Endurance Marine Engines. Almost every one of them seem to have the same recipe for honing. Once they try it the way I have suggested, they ALL report back to me with the same results: They picked up a ton of power, eliminated oil consumption, and their leak down percentages are much better for much longer. They also report that the oil takes much longer to turn color after it is changed. I feel that some are dyed in the whool and may never change. However, after continually detonating several high Dollar engines in succession while beating their heads against the wall in search of the problem/not being able to pinpoint the cause (oil migrating into the chamber), all the way conversing with many who should be in the know, and of course building each one in succession without changing anything/process, (AKA Insanity), they may at long last be Financially Humbled to the point that they are ready to listen.

Take Care.

 

[NJTurbo]

Shaun paragraphs PLEASE

Intercooler a catch can is for guys running a PCV system. The can catches the oil sucked up from the PCV as to limit detonation.

You are thinking of a puke tank, and NO I do not run one. I think you misunderstood my post a few months ago. I get very slight oil on the R/S breather, I have since switched breathers and so far it seems fine. It has open KN breathers which I have never been a fan of.

Oh and what Billy said, ya want to race? drag that roach down here

 

[Intercooler]

Originally posted by NJTurbo
Shaun paragraphs PLEASE

Intercooler a catch can is for guys running a PCV system. The can catches the oil sucked up from the PCV as to limit detonation.

You are thinking of a puke tank, and NO I do not run one. I think you misunderstood my post a few months ago. I get very slight oil on the R/S breather, I have since switched breathers and so far it seems fine. It has open KN breathers which I have never been a fan of.

Oh and what Billy said, ya want to race? drag that roach down here

Up there to me and you still don't have a bar I win!

 

[NJTurbo]

Originally posted by Intercooler
Up there to me and you still don't have a bar I win!

A pass at the track

I would be arrested by all the Politically correct police

You would go home with a red ass anyway..when ya got something bring it

 

[steveX]

From: "Keith Jones" <keithj@totalseal.com> Add to Address Book
To: "steve naidu" <stevexperformance@yahoo.com>


Steve,
Thanks for your support. I've spent quite a bit of time going over honing with Shaun and It looks like he's got it down very well. Most ring sealing problem have nothing to do with the rings. Cylinder honing is critical and 99% of the time the problem. You would be amazed at how many engines I've re-honed correctly and fixed the "ring" problem. Many of these using the other guys conventional rings. This is especially an issue with import blocks they are much harder than there domestic counter parts yet are being honed the same. Bottom line is that regardless of the ring maker or engine there are a series of measured numbers i.e. Ra, Rz, Rpk, Rvk, Rk that need to achieved these don't change much it's a matter of getting them on what your working on.



Best Regards
Keith Jones
Total Seal Inc.
Ph 623-587-7400
Fx 623-587-7600
keithj@totalseal.com

 

[Windsor377]

Shaun,

Great stuff again....from a Ford guy who will ONLY run one of Shauns cams...no I wasn't pre-paid to say that. Principles apply regardless of the logo cast in the side of the block or heads.