Tractor Fluid Observations

[Buick Beginner]

OK, first let me issue this disclaimer: No flames intended, please don’t throw me off the board for posting some info, and I’m really a swell guy. Thanks, now that I’ve got that out of the way here’s what I’d like to share. First off, my tranny info; 200-4R rebuilt about 18 months ago by a local reputable tranny builder in Brandon FL. Mostly Borg Warner and Alto parts, a 9 qt pan, and a 10” 2800 L/U converter. My tranny cooling has been totally removed from the Radiator and I use a B&M stacked plate cooler with a separate fan. The cooler is a 72 plate unit, (28,000 GVW I believe). The cooler is not in the radiator airflow; it’s tucked off to the side and relies solely on a 10” HP fan for cooling. I’ve run type “F” ever since the day it was rebuilt. About a month ago I thought I would go ahead and service the tranny and use Mobilfluid 424 Tractor Hydraulic/Transmission fluid. After the fluid/filter change I went on about my business and didn’t really think much about the increase in my tranny temps. But the more I drove I drove the car the more I noticed that temps were getting up to 205 degrees, sometimes 210 degrees. Not in traffic, but on the freeway. I checked my fan, checked my fittings, blamed the hotter weather in central Florida, anything I could think of, but I kept coming back to the same thing. The tractor fluid. I even posted up a question or two on the board about it, at last I decided I would do a test to settle it. I drove 45 minutes through a certain route through the city. Recorded a high temperature of approximately 208 to 210 degrees. Drove home and waited for the car to cool, then I drained the pan and filled it with Dexron. I then went back out and drove the same route, the tranny temp never got over 180 degrees. OK, now let me say this, these observations are from my vehicle, not an independent survey of 100 Tractor Fluid users. My cooling system is somewhat sensitive in my opinion, so I’m not sure if that has anything to do with it. But I just wanted to post my observations so that if anyone else has a similar problem they might look in the same direction. Once again, I’m really a nice guy and don’t throw me off the board. -BB

 

[chris718]

first of all id like to say i have disagreed with certain things on this board and in one instance i was WRONG.with that said i have seen the same problems with the tractor oil hence my staunch opposition on the site .i wasnt looking to disagree with anyone only to state that i too had found it to be a loser.thanks for posting results .thats what the unity of fellow enthusiasts / maniacs is all about.www.ckperformance.com.

 

[FastTurb]

i'd chip in for you to try Royal Purple.

It looks like your testing is pretty sound to me. Of course "temp" isn't the only consideration but we all know the high temps can have a negative effect. However I thought some of the benefit of the tractor oil was the firm shifts. in the past I saw a difference using B&M for my shifts on a 200R4 that lasted for over 150K miles.

I've been changing over my herd to royal purple - even some of my none TR autos. I've been happy with the motor oil and have trans and rear fluid waiting for the next change I do. Looks like your testing and findings are very useful for us all. thanks for sharing.

 

[LikeMy6]

Thats interesting information, I live about 20min from Brandon I also have been using Mobilfluid 424. When you stated that your temps reached more than 200 on the highway that suprises me since you have a lock up converter. My fluid temp has never been over 190 on the highway with the tc locked up. driving around town I see about 190. I am about ready to do a fluid change, so I will take notes as well and compare. Maybe I will run a synthetic, Amsoil is a thought!


Later

Frank

 

[FlyinGN]

Id love to hear Bruces take on this.. I have been using Chevron tractor fluid for a few years now with good results. Hmmmm interesting stuff here guys..

 

[TClassic]

Originally posted by LikeMy6
that suprises me since you have a lock up converter.

Thats another thing that A LOT of guys STILL don't realize. Until your converter FULLY locks-up, you NEVER complete the entire cooling path through the radiator (or external) cooler!! And never get maximum cooling!!

 

[GNVAIR]

First off, something that really bothers me about this comparison is the fact that he states he has the external cooler tucked under the nose. He never states if it is in the direct air stream. Many guys think that putting a fan on a cooler is going to duplicate the ram effect that putting a cooler in the direct air stream. There is no way ANY fan is going to duplicate it. Period!
I have built many mid engined vehicles and have noted this many times when helping other guys who have mounted their radiator in the back with a fan thinking the fan would make up for lack of air flow. This simply isnt the case. Radiators, condensors, oil coolers, trans coolers, etc are designed to be placed in the air stream. Not behind fenders, under floors, in the back, etc. They have to be in the air stream. If you dont mount it in direct air flow, then it is basically a waste of good $$.
The situation here is even worse since the internal tranmission cooler in the radiator is eliminated and the vehicle is operated in an area of the country where the ambient temperatures approach extremes. Bruce has documented testing data on this subject from an oil testing firm. I know of many guys including myself who have had excellent results with the tractor fluid. Chris' testing method is cooking it in a frying pan. What the heck is that??!! Is that a professional evaluation.
I would be curious to see what Bruce has to say on this subject as well. My take is that because the tractor fluid IS of a higher viscosity that it would require more heat dissapation from the cooler than standard ATF.
On my own car I have kept the stock internal cooler and tapped in the B&M stacked plate cooler into the top line at the radiator using -6AN hose and fitting and running it in series. Works great. Mine is clamped to the X brace in front of the condensor and was done with no cutting. I still have room for another stacked plate cooler that I will be using as an engine oil cooler AND there is still room for a front mount IF I wanted to install one.

 

[Buick Beginner]

Lee,

Please retract claws - Thank you. Now listen. This is one guy, with one car, with one test, with one result. Not consumer reports giving a 5 page test of 100 vehicles. The only reason I put the information up was to possibly help someone else who may be having the same trouble. That's all. With my current setup, I couldn't keep the cooler in the airsteam, or in the radiator, so I had to re-locate. Just sharing information thats all. Still friends? - BB

 

[GNVAIR]

I wasnt yelling or telling you to change anything on your car. I was just stating what I have encountered from experience.
No harm done. Still friends. Peace!

 

[chris718]

buick begginer thank you for the valuable information.i am not very surprised by the results of your testing ,so in essence what you have done is solidify my opinion.hey gnvairill be at englishtown for the mopar nationals ,why dont you give me a call on the cell phone id love to meet you 718 207 5997.

 

[GNVAIR]

Chris, I dont live near Englishtown and why would I want to call you?

 

[chris718]

i thought you might want to voice your opinions face to face instead of on the board as no one really is interested in seeing people argue.thas not what this board is for.if you really think my posts are bs lets debate it out over lunch or a cup of coffee .dont worry i dont bite and you seem to have alot to say here .home 718 626 9629/shop 718 784 4256/cell 718 207 5997.your not far and ill be in jersey all weekend so lets do it ,what do you say .?thats how the politicians do it ,ill meet you anywhere sat or sunday in jersey and hey i got relatives in camden how far away from camden are you ,paulsboro,deptford.looking forward to meeting you .dont attack me on the board you now have your chance to do it in person.

 

[GNVAIR]

You are just a punk Chris who is skating on thin ice here. I will tell you straight up that you arent wanted here by many members.
I have no desire to meet or to speak with you. All most of us want is for you to leave so we can get back to the way things were before. If you have a problem with it, then maybe you should step back and look at the "rhetoric" (remember that word? you should since you used it in another post) that you have posted on here since you came on here. Most of the other pro's refuse to post here anymore because if their opinion doesnt meet Chris' then they get lambasted by Chris. Also want to see who gets banned first? Me or you? I bet you it wont be me
As a side note, if your idea of "meeting" is getting physical, then I should remind you that you are the one with the business to lose.

 

[Buick Beginner]

TRUCE!

Please, North and South, sign a truce. If you guys get much more angry the moderator might delete the whole post! And then I'll get called a troublemaker, then my friends won't talk to me. Then when I walk down the street people will look at me and say, "There goes the guy who started trouble on the TB.com website". Then I'll end up having to move to South Africa and start and new life and won't be able to get Buick parts there. So please, BE SWEET. - BB

 

[FastTurb]

I agree with bringing the topic back on track. However it looks like I am in the middle - in Philly - and can be the neutral party if needed.

I'll go half on the next change if you (beginner) try Royal Purple. If it "can handle the heat" you can keep it in and run with it and I helped pay for it. let me know.

this isn't about choosing sides but someone willing to conduct some testing and sharing the results. and he doesn't have a vested interest in the outcome!!! that's what a true "club" or virtual club can contribute to members. once again I say THANKS to the original poster.

and lastly I think folks are all different and that actually is good for us. I'm sorry to hear people have left or won't post anymore. that is shame for both us and them. I read as much as I can. I try to make my final conclusions from the information. Some personalities jump right off the screen and others are nearly impossible to interpret. But that is the same in life.

I'd love to see how the temperature findings on different trans fluids in a test like this. and then discuss the different theories and ideas of the outcomes.

 

[jakeshoe]

Hey guys,
I usually don't jump into these types of pissing contests but...
When Chris first came aboard here his posts did seem abrasive.
I don't recall the exact post but it kinda made me think "that guys a ****".
He has seemed to tone it down some and IS willing to give some good advice.
I have pesonally spoken with him on the phone with some questions regarding 200 build tricks and specifically the older 200 servo use. Very pleasant to speak to on the phone. I haven't purchased anything but probably will in the future.
I have also spoken with PTS on the phone and purchased some parts around the time Chris came around.
Still haven't put the trans together as it's on the backburner until the 505 BBC gets done to go in front of it.

I think some people may still have a bad taste from Chris's posts when he first came here.
Forgive a little.
I'm here to learn. I'm willing to listen to all the builders here. I chalk the abrasiveness in Chris's responses to his NY background. I've been there, been in the military with people from his neighborhood, and I know Bruce has been there too.

I also comparison shop. I'll listen to both sides and make an educated decision.
Chris is trying to help people and at the same time promote his business. So is Bruce. Nothing wrong with that. That's capitalism. The American Way.

I plan to build two 200-4R's. One will be using PTS's PR kit, shift kit, etc..
The other I may try Chris's stuff just so I can compare.
One goes behind my 505, the other behind a healthy 400 SBC. Both in heavy Chevelle's. So we'll see. I' ll definitely post results but it'll be another 2-3 months probably.

I have to say that both PTS and CKperformance have gained my respect as knowledgable and great service. I hate to see a pissing contest over some differing opinions.
Sometimes what works for one doesn't work for another.

As far as tractor fluid, I dunno....
I like dexron

 

[LikeMy6]

Being that I am from the same location as Buick Beginner under the same weather conditions I have been using the 424 fluid for over a year and havent had 1 single problem or complaint I mixed it 80/20 and the trans operates pefectly. I am using a auto meter temp gage, the sender is in the feed line from the trans to the cooler. so I get to see the temps before they are cooled, I am using a large permacool tube cooler rated somewhere around 24000gvw and NO Radiator cooler. I also have a Front mount IC, the cooler is placed between the IC and RAD. My around town temps range between 180*-190* night and day. Freeway temps with convertor locked up 160*- 170* night and day. So from my real world data the "tractor fluid" works just fine. My car also is no pushover I am running a highly modified motor(NOT a 109 block ) and a 5 disc Vigelante high stall converter. works for me.


Frank

 

[Clay Thompson]

A mean place?

I read this post twice and Buick Beginner's test method indicated one thing--apparently tractor fluid runs hotter than Dextron III. Since Buick Beginner did not measure the temperature early in the day versus late in the day we'll never know that variable but I believe his overall point is valid since the only things that changed were the fluid and the temperatures. That he needs to examine the location of his air-cooled heat exchanger is good advice. But why are you so gun shy Buick Beginner? GNVAIR made a too-the-point response but not insulting like many responses have been lately.

Of course, one bad actor had to jump on the post like a dog on a bone. Too bad! That’s the reason this has turned into a mean place.

What I would like to see posted are the API specs of tractor fluid versus Dextron III. Then some attempt could be made to discuss this at the technical level--which is what this section of the board is supposed to be/used to be all about. As far as the infamous cook stove test--that post should have been immediately removed for technical idiocy, but that was not the only time the responder was technically WRONG.

My impression is that tractor fluid is added as a mix to improve friction, that it runs hotter may not be a problem with a well-done, oil-cooling system. Personally, I run Amsoil and have been using it for over a decade with very good results but I have considered adding some tractor fluid when I race.

BTW, my oil coolers were moved from in front of the radiator to behind the headlights with some sheet metal mods to be sure I got the coolers in the air stream—lowered my water temps, marginally. Heat is a real problem in my fastest ride so cooling gets extra attention.

I’m curios FastTurb, how much is Royal Purple synthetic trannie fluid per quart? I first heard of Royal Purple from the Popular Hot Rod Engine Master’s Challenge but I’ve never actually seen any for sale in the parts houses that I spend WAY too much time in.

Hey jakeshoe, hope to hear more about the 505—what is that a slightly over-bored 502? There’s no replacement for displacement, eh? Word of friendly advice, put the PTS trannie behind the 505 if you do decide to do a shop comparison. Better get ALL the billet parts including the planet. Let us know what breaks first so PTS can develop something that will not break.

Sun’s up—time to go make some $$$ so I can buy more GM parts and pieces!

 

[jakeshoe]

Clay,
The 505 is snowball deal...
I am currently running a nice mellow 427 in my daily driven Chevelle. It runs good (12.94 @105) idles like a stock 350 hp 396, and generally does pretty good for a everyday driver.
But it sounds like a Powerstorke diesel. The pistons in this thing...
It rattles BAD. Smooths up nice and quiet when it's turning 6000 rpm though

Anyway I bought a .060 454 that was supposedly pretty fresh to replace it with because I don't want any downtime. The 454 had closed chamber heads that have already been totally worked over with larger valves, porting, good springs, etc...
Perfect for a flattop 454 to get about ~9.25-1 compression. Heads were worth what I paid for the whole motor.
Took the motor apart to re-ring it and hone it and found the crank needed to be at least polished and the cylinders were tapered beyond specs so I figured I would bore it and do it right.

Well nobody could get me .100 over pistons anytime soon so I needed to order SRP's. So I figured if I'm buying $500 pistons I might as well get 'em for a stroker crank...
So my pistons should be here today. Gotta orded my crank next week. It'll be a 4.350 bore 4.25 stroke. Idle to 6000 rpm motor.
Torque.
Yeah I'm gonna be breaking some parts.
I HAD planned to just try the 200 behind my 427 and see what breaks. Now I know I'm going to have to buy some billet pieces.
Already planned to do the additional 4th clutch, roller park gear and center support. But figure I might as well save and order it ALL at once.

I'm currently running a Th400 that works Excellent. I built it with a TransGo kit, set up all the clearances as per a builder friend I talk to, did a couple of tricks he taught me, and am very happy with it except it doesn't have overdrive. I'm running 3.73 gears and stock sized 25" tall tires on the Chevelle. 4000 rpm at 75 mph.

I got spoiled to my '72 Camaro with the 454 and 6 speed. 1300 rpm at 65 mph with 3.73's.

So I have the BRF core with convertor and a couple of other cores to use stuff from. Already bought a few PTS parts and bought a rebuild kit with all Alto red clutches. Just need to get the motor done so I can get back to the trans.
I was working at a GM dealership with all the bells and whistles that make rebuilding one of these nice. Like hot tank, solvent washers, etc...
Now I'm gonna have to do it in the garage

Anyway that's the life story of the 505 and my Chevelle.

 

[Clay Thompson]

Snowball deal?

Had to read the whole thing to figure that out. I'd call it backing into 500+.

The TH-400s are good for draggin but gotta have that OD to make real tracks.

Last time I raced my trannie went on the fritz and would not shift into OD by the end of the day. On the return trip home I got 9 mpg and ran 30 degrees hotter versus 16 mpg w/OD--this is at 75 mph average speed. I've got 500 CID also.

No symphathy on the backyard though--been there for 15 years now. Four more years and I'll have a heated floor and a lift.

Seriously, let us know what that 505 breaks first.