Tranny and convertor is out and....

[Clay Thompson]

Forward Drums are not the same!

Regarding a PTS forward drum versus any other that I am aware of on the market you asked;

"What is different about them? Both inputs are 300M. Both drums are stockers with the 300M welded to it, heat treated and reinforced. Please explain what makes yours superior."

I copied the forward drum section from
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31365

The post is listed near the top of the trannie section and contains some of the best FREE performance information about the 2004R I've been able to find anywhere on the web. I printed the first version two or three years ago and the newer version thats up there now to guide me through my 2004R rebuilds--I've done three--but now I'm going to let a pro do the next one with all the best parts.


*FORWARD DRUM:
Here is where you get the most debate. Some have broken in the 14 second cars others live in the nines. All I can say is the people of India (where the metals came from for GM) must be some very inconsistent people. 1800 series hi carbon steel is what they were made of. Very close tensile and yield strengths (BAD). Fatigue also plays a factor. Someday hold one up and look at the spline area. All the power runs through that piece. Detonation and traction are what load and unload. When it fails, it is very fast and very violent. Now processes have been tried, hardening, annealing, softening, tigging and cryogentics. All to which have been to no avail. PTS came up with a Billet Drum Shaft and a way to fuse it to the drum and reinforcing the drum during this process. During testing no other "process" passed the 500 ft LB rating. The billet ones went to 1350 ft lbs, and Boeing and a subcontractor to them, did these tests. So numbers can be presented. We also replace the plastic thrust washer with a bearing. Oil and Lube to direct clutches is improved also. Always use hand fit teflon one piece solid teflon rings. Any brand name clutch will do. For hop up, we use Alto Red Eagle cluthes here.(No Kolene steels , stock is fine) *Note: It is not needed but if extra clutch is to be added in this clutch, the front planet ring gear must be cut down and clearenced and top apply pressure plate must be relieved also or driving forward in neutral and bind in reverse will occur. As time goes on metal will appear in the oil also.
Recommended use, 12.0 and under with heavy foot, or in heavy cars such as changeovers.

Has anyone told you that there is a better forward drum out there? I building the crate to ship my recently-broken 2004R and want to send it to the best. Please let me know quickly!

 

[chris718]

thanks pete ,its been a pleasure doing business with you.chris

 

[The Radius Kid]

Originally posted by Intercooler
What is different about them? Both inputs are 300M. Both drums are stockers with the 300M welded to it, heat treated and reinforced. Please explain what makes yours superior.

Interesting.
I thought Bruce Toelle held the patent on that design?
Is CK carrying Bruce's stuff now under license?

 

[WE4]

Well, I wasn't going to say anything...

Ours is reinforced in the drum portion also, BUT the MAJOR difference is.... "I" am sitting on the patent. I have the number issued and all. Drum, input shaft and od planet have been issued numbers. The lawyer keeps pushing me to "turn him loose" but I have been very reluctant. I tried, I really did , to let Chris know what was up and what "rules" to play by. Seems he doesn't particularly care. Keep buying what he sells tho as it will, in the near future help to finance my other endevors. According to the Patent attorney, who by the way is NOT cheap,
CK Perf. is in direct violation of said law. I have been biting my lip to keep the peace both in the market place and on the boards but CK is now advertising in my local clubs newsletter out here on the WEST coast and bad mouthing me in my own backyard. The lawyer has about had it. Nicely, I am trying to ,warn you Chris. It must take some balls to come into my house and my backyard and just keep sticking me like a thorn. Well, I will let my lawyer and YOUR wallet finance me in the VERY near future so all keep patronizing CK as it will help me here shortly.
Unless things change dramatically here real soon, it is coming Chris, and in a big way. Keep in mind the venue will be out here so buy the airplane ticket early to get the best deal.

I thought we had an agreement, Chris........... I guess not.
It just infuriates me that I have to take this action against a fellow New Yorker. We are still brothers in a sense and this is what bothers me the most. But, like they say, "One has got to do what one has to do." I will protect what I have brought to the table which I so much deserve. I can remember when people used to ask, "You want to build what?" They thought I was mentally disturbed. ( I am, just in another sense ) Now look at PTS XTREME. Everybody wants to copy us.

Don't quite know what else to say.


WE4
Bruce

 

[The Radius Kid]

After all the time and funds you used to develope the parts,what more do you need to say?
They're your brainchild,so........

 

[Clay Thompson]

Sincerest form of flattery?

Yeah right!

This explains a lot.

Are the shift kits he's been giving away copies too?

I guess you can afford to give away something if you do not do the R&D.

Bruce, maybe you'll get your R&D cost back on the forward drum after all. What's the law, three times the cost of damages?

We want cameras in the courtroom with a live feed to TB Board.

You know what they say in Cali, if the glove fits where it!

 

[Intercooler]

I only know how things are here at my work in regards to patents. They are extremely hard to defend! If it is written with the utmost in detail and documentation covering all aspects usually it doesn't hold water. I have seen it about a billion times so far with our battles with Cabot. All it takes is one small change to make it "different" and case is closed. Material composition can even be different. Method....... etc...... Also witnessed notebooks come into play in a huge way! Many times it boils down to who documented it first. Not always do people have to file a patent for it to technically be theirs.....they just need to show their work and idea was before the next guy. Just my .002 on patents.

 

[WE4]

And Jesse is very correct.

Quoted by Intercooler....
"Also witnessed notebooks come into play in a huge way! Many times it boils down to who documented it first. Not always do people have to file a patent for it to technically be theirs.....they just need to show their work and idea was before the next guy. Just my .002 on patents"


That statement is 100% true.
We have docs from 1997
We have the drawings from 1997
They were time stamped and safe deposit boxed.
Then the provisional's were issued
Now I am at the stage of I do not want to be a jerk, but I just see me getting disrespected and "sand thrown in my face" so to speak.
I do not like the whole situation and am very uncomfortable with it.
I do not like to stir the pot, but I ask......" How would you feel? "

And.... to boot... I have no trouble with Chris doing what he has as I do not want to see his time and efforts wasted .
I had no problem with him "using" what he makes, even selling what he makes to his locals, as I applaud his efforts and hate to see hard work wasted. He has some money invested and works hard, however, I originally asked he doesn't "invade" my prior customers and "invade" my end of the country. There is enough for all. But he continues to just "want to take me over" and take over the TB.com forum I have built.

HEY CHRIS!!!!?

Remember , if you want to take all from me you get the WIFE too!!! If you want to take the good from me, the BAD comes with it, and she my friend, is enough to drive you to the wacky ward all by herself. So keep in mind, you inherit that also!
ROFLMAO


Bruce
WE4

 

[chris718]

LOOK HERE .OUR PARTS ARE MADE BY US .BRUCE TOELLE YOU HAVE COPIED SCOTT MCLAYS TRANSBRAKE AND DRUM AND NOW CALL IT YOUR OWN .SHAME ON YOU.SEND THE LAWYERS BECAUSE YOULL NEVER GET ONE CENT OUT OF ME OVER A PART YOU RIPPED OFF FROM SOMEONE ELSE.AND MR CLAY THOMPSON IF YOU THINK MY PARTS ARE COPIES DONT BUY THEM.I WISH WE COULD HAVE A FACE 2 FACE DISCUSSION ABOUT THIS BECAUSE IT SEEMS YOU GENTLEMAN ONLY CAN SPEAK WITH YOUR FACES HIDDEN BEHIND THE COMPUTER SCREEN .I AM A MAN IN EVERY SENSE OF THE WORD.A MAN WHO DEVELOPS MARKETS AND SELLS HIS OWN PRODUCTS TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE SHOWN A GREAT INTEREST IN THEM.ITYS A SHAME YOUR OWN PERSONAL INSECURITIES HAVE CAUSED YOU TO LAUNCH ATTACKS ON UNDESERVING OTHERS BECAUSE YOUR LACK OF SELF WORTH PROHIBITS YOU FROM DEALING WITH THEM.I AM HUMBLED BY EVERYONES KIND WORDS AND APPRECIATION FOR MY TECHNICAL ADVICE AND TRUTHFULLNESS.IF YOU GUYS AT TURBO BUICK DIDNT APPRECIATE OUR HELP WE WOULDNT SPEND TIME ANSWERING FONE CALLS AND EMAILS HELPING YOU OUT.AND JUDGING FROM THE POSTS I KNOW WHO IS DOING THE RIGHT THING AND WHO IS ATTACKING ONE OF THE MOST DEDICATED PEOPLE IN THE TRANS BUSINESS.SO AS IT STANDS BRUCE TOEELE AND CLAY THOMPSON HAVE BOTH PROVED TO ME AGAIN HOW IN THE LAND OF THE BLIND ONE EYE RULES .A DOG ONCE STOLD A PIECE OF MEAT FROM THE BUTCHER SHOP AND RAN ACROSS TOWN TO EAT IT .WHEN HE ARRIVED AT A RIVER BANK HE PLACED IT DOWN AND PREPARED TO EAT IT .ALL OF A SUDDEN HE HEARD OTHER DOGS AND HE DECIDED TO CROSS THE RIVER SO THAT HE DIDNT HAVE TO SHARE WITH THE OTHERS .WHILE SWIMMING ACROOSS WITH THE MEAT IN HIS MOUTH HE LOOKED IN THE WATER (AT HIS REFLECTION)AND SAW ANOTHER DOG WITH A BIGGER PIECE OF MEAT IN HIS MOUTH AND SAID TO HIMSELF IM GOING TO DROP MINE AND TAKE HIS .WHEN HE DROPPED HIS IN THE WATER AND WENT TO GRAB THE OTHER PIECE WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENED.BRING IT ON .WWW.CKPERFORMANCE.COM

 

[chris718]

UNBELIEVABLE

HEY ALL, THIS IS MICHELLE FROM CK PERFORMANCE AND I HAVE BEEN SITTING BACK AND BITTING MY LIP READING ALL THIS BS(EXACTLY WHAT IT IS). I CANT BELIEVE WHAT IM READING!!!
HERE WE ARE DOING THE BEST WE CAN TO MAKE PEOPLE FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH THERE PRODUCTS AND HELPING THEM WITH TECH QUESTIONS, WHICH I MAY ADD, IS TIME CONSUMING BUT WELL WORTH IT TO MAKE OUR CUSTOMERS OR PEOPLE IN GENERAL HAPPY. I THOUGHT THIS WAS A FREE MARKET PLACE. I PAY TO ADVERTISE ON THIS BOARD LIKE MANY OTHERS AND IT KILLS ME TO SEE SUCH BACK STABBING GOING ON HERE. I CAN SAY, BECAUSE IM THE 1ST PERSON TO TELL CHRIS, THAT WE HONESTLY DO NOT HAVE ANY PROBLEM SHARING THE BOARD AND DO NOT PUT ANYONES COMPANY OR PRODUCTS DOWN.

BRUCE I CANT BELIEVE YOU DUDE... DONT YOU FEEL THAT YOU ATTACKED US BECAUSE YOU FEEL LIKE WERE AFTER YOU AND SOME SORT OF WAY?? IF YOU HAD SUCH HARSH WORDS TO SAY YOU SHOULD HAVE DISCUSSED THIS LIKE AN ADULT AND CALLED US UP, NOT BAD MOUTH US A TECH BOARD . THATS JUST PLAN SILLY. WE DONT TWIST ANYONES ARMS TO BUY OUR PRODUCT, WE JUST ANWER QUESTIONS AND TAKE ORDERS IF PEOPLE ARE PURCHASING THINGS NOR DO WE TELL ANYONE NOT TO BUY YOUR PRODUCTS.

AS FOR YOU CLAY THOMPSON... YOU JUST EAT THIS SH...T UP DONT YA? YOU ARE A PITIFUL EXCUSE FOR A HUMAN BEING LET ALONE A VERY ANGRY MAN. REALLY CLAY, TV MONITERS IN THE COURT ROOM?? GET A LIFE. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE LATELY TO HELP THE BOARD OUT BESIDE ADDING FUEL TO THE FIRE. GEE BELIEVE IT OR NOT , NOT TO MANY PEOPLE HOLD ANY TYPE OF CANDLE TO YOU OR YOUR OPINIONS SO WHY DON'T YOU GET A LIFE.(SEE, NOW YA MADE ME GO AGAINST MY WORD AND TALK ABOUT A FELLOW BOARD MEMBER) AND STAY OUT OF THE ARENA. ITS A SHAME THAT YOU CANT PULL YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR AS... LONG ENOUGH TO SEE THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO DESERVE TO GET SOMETHING FOR NOTHING AFTER DISHING DOLLAR AFTER DOLLAR ON PARTS. THIS IS HOW WE THANK OUR CUSTOMERS. GUESS WHAT IF WE HAVE TO WE WILL STILL PROMOTE. MAYBE YOUR UPSET BECAUSE YOU WONT GET ANYTHING FREE FROM US, EVER. I DONT EVEN HAVE AN OUNCE OF RESPECT FOR YOU... YOU ARE JUST PATHETIC.. ENOUGH W/ YOU

ANYWAY, FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE HAPPY WITH CK PERFORMANCE, AND DONT SEE US AS MONSTERS, OR RIP-OFFS, PLEASE KEEP THE E-MAILS COMING AS WELL AS THE PHONE CALLS. YOU WILL GET THE SAME HONEST ANSWERS AND CUSTOMER SERVICE YOU HAVE ALWAYS BEEN GETTING FROM US
THANKS FOR YOUR PATRONAGE, PROUDLY, MICHELLE OF CK PERFORMANCE!!!

 

[Clay Thompson]

Lovely

Just FYI here's the way your hubby talks to someone trying to have a technical discussion on TB, where we first met when he used my private email off the board to try to sell me, I think it clearly crosses the line of putting someone down.

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66869

"if you want the parts ******* send me a check happy new year on your island surrounded by ignorance mother f%%%%%%"

or

"you just cant get it strait.for some one with a degree you really are pretty dumb .you got what you asked for and you still aint happy .humble yourself so you dont show everyone how foolish you are. THE LIPS OF A FOOL CAN SWALLOW HIM UP ."

Chris, your foul responses and just way-over-the-top crass commercialism and self-promotion made me stop enjoying posting on TB.

But the real issue is your total disrespect for those who created this forum. First you thread on them and now it turns out with all your bravada and self-anionted expertise you've stolen the hard labor and intelectual efforts of others?

You know your transmission stuff but I've got better things to do than to read your bile which pours forth anytime someone--not just me--says something you do not like or agree with. Yeah, I'd like to see justice.

Maybe we will meet, in a Cali court.

 

[78oldscutlass]

HOLY CRAP

Who wants popcorn? This is gonna be a big fireworks show.

 

[Intercooler]

Well thanks Chris for the parts to get me up and running by the end of this week and also for the technical stuff coverning dual feed! I think I saved a tremendous amount of cash in the process and will be putting the parts to the test. Also thanks for your support of this board, currently you are the only responder I see on here so you are much appreciated!

 

[chris718]

THANKS INTERCOOLER.

 

[chris718]

clay thompson im sorry you are so misinformed about our company.and i dont appreciate your remarks about my shift kit either but if this is how you make yourself feel important than have a good time with it but if you are trying to throw me a rope to hang myself with in front of those on this forum a better use for the rope would be to tie up your tongue with it so that you dont spew out anymore nonsense about me , my products ,my company and the fact that you just dont like the ckperformance gang .im not promoting myself at the expense of others and in the world of business promotional items pay high dividends to those who execute their plan correctly.dont blame me for you not posting on the board i am by no means a puppet master controlling your actions for if i was your negative posts about me wouldnt exist.at 32 years old in the business since 84 i may even have more experience than your protege mr toelle,and his products were spinoffs of scott mclays original designs,ours arent even remotely close .leave me alone as i am busy trying to make the fruits of my labor available to all who seek them at www.ckperformance.com

 

[WE4]

Just so my side ( the truth) is heard...

I did buy a drum and transbrake from Scott McClay in 1996.

The drum we broke in a week.
The transbrake would not hold over 7 psi boost , as it would just drive off then lock, then drive off then lock then smoke the high clutch.
He provided another drum which we broke the following week.
As for the transbrake he said "I don't know" It works here.

NOW...MIND YOU.... I have witnesses to ALL of this.
Steve Culhane of Culhane Transmissions in Lake Elsinor Ca. (Who, by the way, was Art Carr's builder for many years throughout the 70's and 80's) was with me throughout the whole process.
We blew a trans apart at 3AM one morning, with all McClays stuff in it. ( And I mean blew APART in many, many pieces, parts, fluid , everything , what a mess) and decided McClays stuff wasn't gonna work. We looked at HOW we broke the drums and WHERE and WHY? Then, the same with why the transbrake didnt work . We then tossed it in the garbage can, Cleaned up our mess and went to Dennys to eat. Steve says "Hey what about this"... lets try this... So we actually drew the first plans for the BAT BRAKE on a Denny's napkin having breakfest at 4am in the morning!! This is no crap! We Actually still have the napkin we drew the brake out on! Steve Culhane can verify that we DID NOT copy Scotts stuff as it did not work for us. Now in principal, yes we used some of the same principals, but in order for it to work at all , one would have to apply these principals just as you have in your brake as we have discussed. The next morning we beat the streets for a solenoid then designed a distribution block for it. That was the hang up. They needed to be totally custom made. Those were the tough part of the Bat Brake. Then we hunted a way to plumb it. Anyway, bottom line is Steve Culhane, if anybody, should get some credit for the Bat Brake, but it was OUR middle of the night brainchild. PERIOD! Steve said I worked more on it and financed it and he was into off road stuff so that is why it is MINE!.
There is how the Bat Brake was created.
BUT I dont give a crap about the Transbrake as I never applied for a patent for it cause as a pain in the ass it is, anybody wanting to make one, have at it. So the brake is not, and was never even an issue.

Now the drum.
Like I said , we broke two. So we looked at what we had to work with, took the weaknesses and went to Aerojet Aircraft in Folsom Ca. They hooked me up with material design, metalergy and a process. They then hooked me up with some NASA guys, as they were car buffs, to get the material needed and then they turned me on to this Boeing Sub for the testing. ALL #1 HighTechnology in the country involved. I spent 23K on testing alone!
Currently , I have a machinest that does most of our cnc work. Every part is the same. To date I know of one failure, and after having metalergist analyze, it was determined that there was a flaw in the actual metal itself. Only in that spot , but it surfaced. BTW.... Scott McClay NEVER made an Billet Input shaft for a 2004r. TCS and PTS were the first to do that . (1997) Rusty Stewart (TCS) can attest to this, and will.
Then I had a sub contracted Boeing aircraft shop do our testing.
The first design we twisted the shaft out of the drum at 960 ft lbs.
So we then went back and "flanged the "floor" of the drum with the billet shaft. We then Laser fused the two parts together, with a new technology welding process. We then went back to Boeing Sub and tested again. same controlled conditions. At 1360 lbs we had no twist and no flex. So they ended the test. I wanted to push one till we broke it but they weren't very cool with that. The input shafts were tested to 1400ftlbs with same results, no twist or flex. Tensile, or yeild.

SO.... How did I copy what?
Notice, I named names that can be contacted at anytime.

I do want to say that I think Scott McClays parts for all the things he does with the 200 and others are excellent, great products. I reccommend him to the 200 guys all the time. He is a nice guy. I have no animosity and nothing but praise for the guy. I admit I bought his stuff very early in our quest but he even admitted to me, it wasn't a market he felt good about and was not interested in going big time with it. I ASKED him this straight up one day. I told him I was going to take it to the next level. He said "Go
ahead".

The bearinged stuff I did myself and the servos I CNC.
All our seals are special made special order.
The OD Planets are a brainchild of PTS XTREME and RCM Manufacturing. Robert Moore.
All the valves are designed by me and machined at RCM Manufacturing. Robert Moore
Our Chrome Moly Pump Rotors and slides are designed by Robert Moore and Manufactured at RCM Manufacturing FOR ME by Robert Moore. He and I have contracts on all of this.
The Pans were designed by me and I have a company that specializes in water laserjet cutting , they cut the pieces under CNC water jet laser. They are then welded by Dave Thornhill , HIMSELF, of Thornhill Engineering in Rancho Cordova Ca. (Who btw happens to be the Number 1 chassis builder of race chasssis in Northern California, and was Chris Alstons chassis guy for many years , years ago.) )

SO......WHO DID I COPY?
I just revealed how, who and why I did what I did.
I spent 100K on this endenvor and yes I feel the need to explain.
I didnt want a pissing contest and still don't.
I do feel you and Clay there have issues tho.
I just wanted to explain what you accussed me of so this "copy" bullshiit is out of the way.
I Named all who can be contacted.
Ask Art Carr the man. He will tell you. Ask Steve Culhane. He will too. Ask robert Moore he will tell you. I told Carr what I was doing early in the quest. He was all for it.

I didnt mean to attack you Chris and if you took it that way I am sorry but I am getting tired of hearing about how you complain I "Copied" someone else. I just explained in detail with names, who was involved. Again I want to say , I applaud anyone who works hard and takes pride in what they do.
What I am claiming is I was the first to bring it to the plate and that should be rewarded someday, somehow and the patent is it. The brake I could care less about. The fwd drum, input shaft and OD planet I deserve.
Your antics make me laugh sometimes but your theories can be very good.

I put this out for all to see and it has ALWAYS been published both on here in Strengthening the 2004r and on our website.
I have NOTHING to hide.

I think Clay is going to be a little tougher to convince tho, so, good luck with him.

Any questions?

WE4
Bruce

 

[WE4]

Originally posted by Intercooler
Also thanks for your support of this board, currently you are the only responder I see on here so you are much appreciated!

Look who responded to you the first five times....

WE4
Bruce

 

[The Radius Kid]

Wow!The plot thickens.
I gotta start hanging out in the trans section more.
Well put Bruce.
You seem to have all your ducks in a row.

 

[squeeze87]

Well, GM Hydramatic actually holds the patents to ALL 200-4r components and if they wanted to could stop anyone from modifying them. You MAY be able to patent a process for fusing a shaft to a drum, but not the drum itself. If Chris's drum is the slightest bit different, guess what?? What does your lawyer know about metallurgical process? Not as much as Mr. Thompson I'm sure. Also, in this day, the guy with the most money can buy a court descision, so the law doesnt even come into play. If this thing ever went to court , the lawyers would be the only winners. MY $.02 worth, I'm outta here!

 

[WE4]

I believe you're right Squeeze

About the only winner is the lawyer......That is why nothing has been done. However, just to be clear, GM was contacted and Patent numbers have been issued. They agreed that what we did was ok. I gotta admit, I was wonderin that myself, but GM didn't balk, at all.

Bruce
WE4