TSO rules for 2011
- Thread starter III'S 87 GN
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What bull**** ? show up and race, I dont see a problem if you dont want to change your combo then don't nobody is forcing your hand. Gary Harmon won TSO in reynolds with a 8.50 TSL car so bottom line on race day anything can and will happen.
steve hughes
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1c 2c 3a 4a
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The current min wt for the point series is 3200#
It is currently 100# so I say leave it alone
50# isnt much of a wt break. I would give a 100# wt break.
Is anyone NOT going to race if the current turbo rule is left alone?
Merry Christmas everyone!
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Yes that sounds right. My turbo vote is pretty much for no change. I'm not sure everyone reading what you wrote understood choice A as that. Bobby Don voted for any 88mm turbo but in another post he responded to it seemed he was upset with any changes to the turbo rule
Other than change some of the addition and deduction penalties I see no reason to change the core set of rules at all. Are you planning to use the core rules the point series has run since 2007?
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/ts...7263-2010-tso-top-gun-point-series-rules.html
If not I have several questions that will affect how my car is being built right now. Such as: Can I run spindle mount wheels? Will I be able to relocate the upper frame mounts? WIll I be able to run a fiberglass dashboard and will I even need one? Will I be able to run a pin on front end? Will I need headlights and a grille? Can I run alcohol and will I need a radiator? Can I run lexan windows and do they need to be operable? Can I run a lenco transmission? Do I need an exhaust or can I dump it out the fender in front?
Here's what we came up with based on straight voting:
Tony G B A B B
George T B B B B
Ted A A A B B
Laz B C A C
Chris L A C C A
Steve H C C A A
Chris H B A B B
Don C B A B B
Bobby D A B A C
Art P A A A B
Brad T A A A C
Manny E B C A B
Dave F A B A C
The total voting on Base Weight was:
6 wanted 3200 6 wanted 3300 and 1 wanted 3400
If I were to average this it comes out to 3250 base weight
The total voting on the Liquid Weight Penalty was:
6 wanted NO PENALTY 3 wanted 50# PENALTY and 4 wanted 100# PENALTY
If I were to average this it comes out to a 42# Penalty
The total voting on 275 Drag Radial Credit was:
7 wanted NO CREDIT 5 wanted 50# CREDIT and 1 wanted 100# CREDIT
If I were to average this it comes out to a 27# Credit
The total voting on allowing the larger 88 turbos was:
2 said NO 7 said YES and 4 said YES w/PENALTY
Based on this voting. Here's what I propose:
BASE WEIGHT OF 3250#
50# PENALTY FOR A LIQUID INTERCOOLER
NO WEIGHT BREAK FOR A 275 RADIAL
IF YOU RUN A TURBO LARGER THAN 47/88 YOU MUST RUN A 275 TIRE
My reason for the last rule is simple: The only reason we are changing the current turbo rule is to get closer alligned to the X-275 class. So if a guy is going to a larger turbo to run X-275 he needs to run 275's
Tony G B A B B
George T B B B B
Ted A A A B B
Laz B C A C
Chris L A C C A
Steve H C C A A
Chris H B A B B
Don C B A B B
Bobby D A B A C
Art P A A A B
Brad T A A A C
Manny E B C A B
Dave F A B A C
The total voting on Base Weight was:
6 wanted 3200 6 wanted 3300 and 1 wanted 3400
If I were to average this it comes out to 3250 base weight
The total voting on the Liquid Weight Penalty was:
6 wanted NO PENALTY 3 wanted 50# PENALTY and 4 wanted 100# PENALTY
If I were to average this it comes out to a 42# Penalty
The total voting on 275 Drag Radial Credit was:
7 wanted NO CREDIT 5 wanted 50# CREDIT and 1 wanted 100# CREDIT
If I were to average this it comes out to a 27# Credit
The total voting on allowing the larger 88 turbos was:
2 said NO 7 said YES and 4 said YES w/PENALTY
Based on this voting. Here's what I propose:
BASE WEIGHT OF 3250#
50# PENALTY FOR A LIQUID INTERCOOLER
NO WEIGHT BREAK FOR A 275 RADIAL
IF YOU RUN A TURBO LARGER THAN 47/88 YOU MUST RUN A 275 TIRE
My reason for the last rule is simple: The only reason we are changing the current turbo rule is to get closer alligned to the X-275 class. So if a guy is going to a larger turbo to run X-275 he needs to run 275's
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I can live with that BUT is this in addition to the core rules?
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/ts...7263-2010-tso-top-gun-point-series-rules.html
TRZ makes a bolt on spindle mount front suspension. A one piece front end will make a difference as speeds approach 180mph and I plan on being there, especially at 3250#'s??
Based on Ted's last post, I went ahead and calculated the weights based on how you voted to see if things would turn out diferent:
Base 275 Liquid 275w/Liq
3300 3250 3300 3250 Tony G
3300 3250 3350 3300 George T
3200 3150 3200 3150 Ted A
3300 3300 3400 3400 Laz
3200 3100 3300 3200 Chris L
3400 3400 3500 3500 Steve H
3300 3250 3300 3250 Chris H
3300 3250 3300 3250 Don C
3200 3200 3250 3250 Bobby D
3200 3200 3200 3200 Art P
3200 3200 3200 3200 Brad T
3300 3300 3400 3400 Manny
3200 3200 3250 3250 Dave F
3262 3235 3304 3277 AVERAGE
This still averages out the same way as the other method
Base 275 Liquid 275w/Liq
3300 3250 3300 3250 Tony G
3300 3250 3350 3300 George T
3200 3150 3200 3150 Ted A
3300 3300 3400 3400 Laz
3200 3100 3300 3200 Chris L
3400 3400 3500 3500 Steve H
3300 3250 3300 3250 Chris H
3300 3250 3300 3250 Don C
3200 3200 3250 3250 Bobby D
3200 3200 3200 3200 Art P
3200 3200 3200 3200 Brad T
3300 3300 3400 3400 Manny
3200 3200 3250 3250 Dave F
3262 3235 3304 3277 AVERAGE
This still averages out the same way as the other method
Let me digest this a little before I respond. My plan was to stick with the same basic rules as last year with some minor tweaking. I assume these are the current rules: http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/ts...7263-2010-tso-top-gun-point-series-rules.html
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If I am reading right, the any 88 turbo won right?
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Something like this?
2011 Rules:
Racing Rules:
INTENT: This a heads up class for 81-87 Buick regal bodied cars running single turbo Buick V6 engines and stock style rear suspension with a 10.5" tire. The class is to be run on a .400 pro-tree and on a pro-ladder, no 1st round mechanical or no show bye runs. All cars must have all applicable safety equipment for speeds obtained and must be able to pass host track safety tech. All entrants SHOULD have the necessary equipment to be able to run faster than 9.99. Host track safety tech will make all decisions concerning safety tech of vehicles competing in the TSO top Gun Point Series and it is the drivers responsibility to make sure their car meets ALL host track requirements.
Class minimum weight is 3250#
1. BODY: 1981-1987 Regal body required with stock firewall location and full stock frame with stock wheelbase required (108.0" measured). Frame modifications for roll cages, safety, tire size and cross member clearance are allowed. Frame notching for tire clearance is allowed but the inner frame rail can not be modified or moved from its stock location. Four functioning headlights and taillights required. Light weight aftermarket body panels allowed. No pin on doors or front ends allowed. Doors must have door panels and be functional with functional windows allowed.
2. EXHAUST: No part of turbo exhaust may exit forward of engine flywheel area and a muffler is required.
3. FRONT SUSPENSION: Must have stock mounting locations. Any aftermarket bolt on part is allowed. Rack and pinion conversions are allowed. NO SPINDLE MOUNT WHEELS ALLOWED
4. REAR SUSPENSION: must maintain factory mounting locations on the frame. Coil over conversion allowed, sway bar and panhard bar modifications are allowed. Must maintain factory 4-link arrangement. Any automotive type solid axle housing allowed.
5. TIRES: Rear tires may either be DOT-approved and labeled or labeled for racing slicks. DOT tires must have labels facing the outside of the body and are limited to a maximum new tread width of 12.1 inches and can never exceed 12.25 inches in width. Slicks are limited to a maximum sidewall designation of 10.5 inches width and may never exceed 11.1 inches in width. No drive tire may have sidewall designation height greater than 29.5 inches. The front tires are limited to 4.5- inch minimum tread width. The tread of tires must not protrude outside of the exterior of bodyline at top of tires.
** Measurement will be taken with tape measure from end of tread to end of tread.
(This dose not allow the MT 29.5x10.5W)
IF YOU RUN A TURBO LARGER THAN 47/88 YOU MUST RUN A 275 TIRE
6. TURBO: Maximum compressor wheel size is 88.0 mm /3.464” - inducer wheel diameter and exducer diameter of 127mm/5.000". A maximum tubine exducer diameter of 93mm/3.66". Inlet housing is permitted a maximum inlet diameter of 3.544”where the leading edge of the compressor wheel meets the housing. Turbos with compressor wheel inducer diameters of 82mm and smaller will have no limit on compressor exducer size and turbine size. Large frame thumper series turbos are not allowed in any configuration. Turbine and compressor housings must carry a manufacturer part number that is readily available to the general public prior to Jan1 of the current race season.
Compressor wheel to housing clearance must maintain a maximum of 0.080” clearance beginning from a) where the leading edge of the compressor wheel meets the inlet of the compressor housing to b) the transition point where the trailing edge of the compressor wheel meets the volute. All air entering the turbocharger must pass through the turbocharger inlet. Injection of any liquid, gas, or any other substance into the inlet or exhaust housing prohibited. Turbocharger compressor wheel must be constructed of cast or billet aluminum. Exotic material wheels prohibited. The tips of the impeller wheel may not be stepped, cut down, or notched to meet impeller tip-to-tip dimension. (.500-inch will define the tip of the impeller wheel).
Turbo must be located within the factory engine compartment with stock turbo orientation. The turbo must not be mounted forward of the factory core support and the inlet has to be facing the drivers side of the car and mounted as close to the stock location as possible. The crossover pipe can be in any location.
Any competitor is subject to inspection and removal of compressor housing. If protested by another competitor, the protesting competitor is required to put up $100 which will be given up if the turbo is found to be legal. Anyone found to be illegal or unwilling to remove the compressor cover for inspection will be automatically dis-qualified and removed from the point series.
7. TRANSMISSION: Any GM automatic transmission w/ any torque converter allowed. No Lenco, Liberty or manual transmissions with or without clutch allowed.
8. FUEL: Gasoline fuel only, no additives, alcohol, or nitrous oxide injection allowed. No additional injection/spray of any sort in or on the motor, turbo, IC, drive train etc. NOS bottle(s) shall not be on vehicle during competition or qualifying.
9. Interior: Stock appearing dashboard and passenger seat required, door panels required, interior must be carpeted and as close to factory appearing as possible. Rear seat may be removed, but area shall be carpeted.
ADDITIONS:
-50# for a liquid IC
2011 Rules:
Racing Rules:
INTENT: This a heads up class for 81-87 Buick regal bodied cars running single turbo Buick V6 engines and stock style rear suspension with a 10.5" tire. The class is to be run on a .400 pro-tree and on a pro-ladder, no 1st round mechanical or no show bye runs. All cars must have all applicable safety equipment for speeds obtained and must be able to pass host track safety tech. All entrants SHOULD have the necessary equipment to be able to run faster than 9.99. Host track safety tech will make all decisions concerning safety tech of vehicles competing in the TSO top Gun Point Series and it is the drivers responsibility to make sure their car meets ALL host track requirements.
Class minimum weight is 3250#
1. BODY: 1981-1987 Regal body required with stock firewall location and full stock frame with stock wheelbase required (108.0" measured). Frame modifications for roll cages, safety, tire size and cross member clearance are allowed. Frame notching for tire clearance is allowed but the inner frame rail can not be modified or moved from its stock location. Four functioning headlights and taillights required. Light weight aftermarket body panels allowed. No pin on doors or front ends allowed. Doors must have door panels and be functional with functional windows allowed.
2. EXHAUST: No part of turbo exhaust may exit forward of engine flywheel area and a muffler is required.
3. FRONT SUSPENSION: Must have stock mounting locations. Any aftermarket bolt on part is allowed. Rack and pinion conversions are allowed. NO SPINDLE MOUNT WHEELS ALLOWED
4. REAR SUSPENSION: must maintain factory mounting locations on the frame. Coil over conversion allowed, sway bar and panhard bar modifications are allowed. Must maintain factory 4-link arrangement. Any automotive type solid axle housing allowed.
5. TIRES: Rear tires may either be DOT-approved and labeled or labeled for racing slicks. DOT tires must have labels facing the outside of the body and are limited to a maximum new tread width of 12.1 inches and can never exceed 12.25 inches in width. Slicks are limited to a maximum sidewall designation of 10.5 inches width and may never exceed 11.1 inches in width. No drive tire may have sidewall designation height greater than 29.5 inches. The front tires are limited to 4.5- inch minimum tread width. The tread of tires must not protrude outside of the exterior of bodyline at top of tires.
** Measurement will be taken with tape measure from end of tread to end of tread.
(This dose not allow the MT 29.5x10.5W)
IF YOU RUN A TURBO LARGER THAN 47/88 YOU MUST RUN A 275 TIRE
6. TURBO: Maximum compressor wheel size is 88.0 mm /3.464” - inducer wheel diameter and exducer diameter of 127mm/5.000". A maximum tubine exducer diameter of 93mm/3.66". Inlet housing is permitted a maximum inlet diameter of 3.544”where the leading edge of the compressor wheel meets the housing. Turbos with compressor wheel inducer diameters of 82mm and smaller will have no limit on compressor exducer size and turbine size. Large frame thumper series turbos are not allowed in any configuration. Turbine and compressor housings must carry a manufacturer part number that is readily available to the general public prior to Jan1 of the current race season.
Compressor wheel to housing clearance must maintain a maximum of 0.080” clearance beginning from a) where the leading edge of the compressor wheel meets the inlet of the compressor housing to b) the transition point where the trailing edge of the compressor wheel meets the volute. All air entering the turbocharger must pass through the turbocharger inlet. Injection of any liquid, gas, or any other substance into the inlet or exhaust housing prohibited. Turbocharger compressor wheel must be constructed of cast or billet aluminum. Exotic material wheels prohibited. The tips of the impeller wheel may not be stepped, cut down, or notched to meet impeller tip-to-tip dimension. (.500-inch will define the tip of the impeller wheel).
Turbo must be located within the factory engine compartment with stock turbo orientation. The turbo must not be mounted forward of the factory core support and the inlet has to be facing the drivers side of the car and mounted as close to the stock location as possible. The crossover pipe can be in any location.
Any competitor is subject to inspection and removal of compressor housing. If protested by another competitor, the protesting competitor is required to put up $100 which will be given up if the turbo is found to be legal. Anyone found to be illegal or unwilling to remove the compressor cover for inspection will be automatically dis-qualified and removed from the point series.
7. TRANSMISSION: Any GM automatic transmission w/ any torque converter allowed. No Lenco, Liberty or manual transmissions with or without clutch allowed.
8. FUEL: Gasoline fuel only, no additives, alcohol, or nitrous oxide injection allowed. No additional injection/spray of any sort in or on the motor, turbo, IC, drive train etc. NOS bottle(s) shall not be on vehicle during competition or qualifying.
9. Interior: Stock appearing dashboard and passenger seat required, door panels required, interior must be carpeted and as close to factory appearing as possible. Rear seat may be removed, but area shall be carpeted.
ADDITIONS:
-50# for a liquid IC
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TurboDiverArt
The Guru Thorn
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I think the last rule is actually going to give an advantage to a 275-tire car just when they need it. The larger turbos are going to be harder to spool than the 47/88 and softer down low. I think the larger turbos are going to really start pouring on the coals down track when the 275 is working to your advantage. I think you'll see a car with 275's and a larger turbo really put up some big numbers compared to a slick+47/88. I think this rule is again assuming a slick has an advantage over a radial and penalizing it.
If everyone is OK with it this way or they just want to try it out and see I'm OK with it. I go back to the X275 rules, do they penalize for a larger than 47/88 turbo?
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I think Donnie Wang can even play with his 91mm if he wants to run on 275's
:biggrin::biggrin:
Yes, they do. I also want to add that I am making some contingencies in case someone starts running away with the class. The real question is, WHO WILL SHOW UP AND ACTUALLY RACE?
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Art,
Based on my experience a slick tire car is going to have a slight advantage if running wheelie bars. Even a 28x10.5 slick would hold more power than a 325 DR on my car if I could keep the front end on the ground. Take away the wheelie bars though and the DR is the better choice due to the stiffer sidewall. A 29.5x10.5 stiff wall MT slick on a car with wheelie bars should be able to 60' in the LOW 1.20's maybe high teens with TSO or even TSL hardware. JMO.
And YES current rules allow for wheelie bars
