TSO rules for 2011

[III'S 87 GN]

TSO rules for 2011 .
I already see the weight of the class being questioned
So what else ?
What are the changes ?
Lets do it now cause Reynolds 2011 will be here quick !!!!!!!

 

[S2V6RACER]

#3300 base weight any mid frame 88 turbo, T6, Promod, ect.
#3200 76-82 turbo
liquid intercoolers allowed. They will impose their own weight penalty as a good liquid with tank/pumps is going to weigh more anyways.
ditch the full exhaust rule to allow dump under car with muffler (GSCA)
front crossover allowed
tire sizes stay the same
remove stage 2 head penalties
Stock dash required, no lightweight fiberglass dashes
Keep other interior rules the same and other body rule requirements.
Deployment of parachute at start line forbidden. (sorry Don)

 

[HighPSI]

Here's some food for thought:
Here are some HP ratings for potential TSO turbos:
42-76 1200hp
45-76 1250hp
45-82 1325hp
47-82 1350hp
47-88 1475hp
ProMod88 1550hp

Using TCI's Calculator as a "guess-timate":

42-76@3400 = 8.1@165 TSL Combination
42-76@3200 = 8.0@168
45-76@3200 = 7.9@171
45-82@3200 = 7.7@174
47-82@3200 = 7.7@175
47-88@3450 = 7.6@176
47-88@3350 = 7.6@178
ProMod@3450=7.5@179
ProMod@3350=7.4@181


Obviously, the ET is going to be tough to reach with the tires being used on the stock suspension. The mph at least gives you an idea of a combination's potential.

Ted's proposal doesn't seem too far off. I was leaning towards 3350# across the board for 88's. I can't see any weight limit mattering for 82mm and smaller turbo's. Allowing the ProMod could be an issue since everyone already has 47-88's. Ditching the liquid penalty, would make things simpler.

We definitely need to get input from other TSO racers and get things sorted out soon. Reynold's is only 4 1/2 months away.

 

[S2V6RACER]

Cal, unless I'm mistaking the promod 88's are based on a GT 55 turbine wheel. My thoughts are if somebody thinks they can make that turbo work better than a GT 47/88, GTV 88, PT 89/88, GT 50/88 Then lets give them a shot at it. I doubt they will be able to get that turbo up on boost fast enough to be competitive on the pro tree let alone how long it's going to take to get to target boost when they let go of the brake.

I am not sure if Turbonetics has anything coming out that is remotely competitve against the Garrett stuff, maybe Jack can chime in if they do, or will soon so we can discuss that too... ???


What do you think??

 

[turbobuick]

I'm up for just about any changes regarding the semantics of the class but leave the turbo and tire rules alone. I would not be on board for any rule changes to the current turbo rule. Promod housings use a GT55 turbine wheel and would change what we currently have. If everyone wants to go faster cut weight and make the cars safer.

Ted,
The current point series rules allow for a muffler and dump it just has to make it past the flywheel???

Liquids are allowed with a wt penalty??

Front crossovers are allowed??

 

[turbobuick]

TSO rules for 2011 .
I already see the weight of the class being questioned
So what else ?
What are the changes ?
Lets do it now cause Reynolds 2011 will be here quick !!!!!!!

Since you have rolling eyes I am all for leaving the weight alone. I like the rules the way they are. If everyone wants to make the weight the same for all I would like to see it come off everyone. What are your thoughts?

 

[S2V6RACER]

I'm up for just about any changes regarding the semantics of the class but leave the turbo and tire rules alone. I would not be on board for any rule changes to the current turbo rule. Promod housings use a GT55 turbine wheel and would change what we currently have. If everyone wants to go faster cut weight and make the cars safer.

Ted,
The current point series rules allow for a muffler and dump it just has to make it past the flywheel???

Liquids are allowed with a wt penalty??

Front crossovers are allowed??

Correct Chris, my thoughts here were to get the GSCA to adopt the point series rules since they were the rules enforced this year even at the GSCA's BG event. I believe Cal has worked hard at trying to get Richard to allow the point series rules but he (Richard) wouldn't bend on the crossover, liquid and exhaust dump rule.

Ditch the T5 weight penalty (GSCA), allow liquids and exhaust dump behind front wheel.

 

[S2V6RACER]

I already see the weight of the class being questioned

Don, what are your thoughts with 180mph in your sights, the S2 headed guys running 175+ with way more boost than you were running? Should the 100# penalty stay in effect for them or should they get a shot at the number on the same playing field?

 

[street-t]

Seems as though the stock style head is not a disadvantage to go fast. So make the cars lighter and the same weight for any style head. 3300 to 3350 sounds good? Cars will be faster and easier on parts.

 

[S2V6RACER]

Here's some food for thought:
Here are some HP ratings for potential TSO turbos:
42-76 1200hp
45-76 1250hp
45-82 1325hp
47-82 1350hp
47-88 1475hp
ProMod88 1550hp

Cal, lets not forget back in 2005 there was a decision based on HP ratings which ended up a huge mistake in keeping this class in control. Did you calculate Dons HP at 176.8 #3375, he is running the PTE 89/88 billet wheel from what I gather, T5 housing. That must be way more than 1475 than the 47/88 is rated for and probably more than the GT 55/88 or ProMod 88 at this point. Some web sites are claiming 47/88 race versions at 1600 HP.

 

[TurboDiverArt]

I'm not going to weigh in on the rules discussion since I didn't race this year in TSO but I might be able to add a little food for thought. I will throw out that I probably campaigned the lightest TSO car in the class, my car with no ballast weighed 3150. You might be able to squeak out another 100# but I think that's about the limit without allowing lexan, pin on hoods and removable shell doors. My car had a functional fiberglass deck lid, fiberglass doors, fiberglass fenders and replacement header panel that was a little lighter than stock. There really wasn't more fiberglass you could fit on a car.

 

[HighPSI]

Don's car comes in at 1460 according to TCI. I was just posting numbers for comparison sake, not putting a lot of value in the actual number.

I will do my best to make sure the GSCA is on the same sheet as the points BG series. FWIW: When we did peer tech at BG, there was any real problem using either rules.

I am leaning towards 3300-3350# across the board with any 88 turbo and a weight penalty for the ProMod housing. No liquid penalty (or maybe only 50#).
What do you guys think?

It would be nice to come up with something to encourage the TSL cars into the field. I don't think the weight is going to work and am not sure if a staggered tree would work either. Any ideas/suggstions?

 

[SGRIM]

I know I am not a racer but:biggrin:

Bring the weight down so the cars can compete at other events with other cars at similar weights. Might help with car count for sure... IMO most "street" cars are in the 3200 to 3300 range max...

Sorry for the intrusion...

 

[turbobuick]

Don's car comes in at 1460 according to TCI.

NET

I am leaning towards 3300-3350# across the board with any 88 turbo and a weight penalty for the ProMod housing. No liquid penalty (or maybe only 50#).
What do you guys think?

Leave the promod housing out. Last I checked with PTE that housing was only available for GT55 turbine wheels and larger which are not allowed.

Drop the wt penalty on S2 head cars with a T6 housing and allow T4 or T6 housings and leave the turbo rule as is.

I have no problem with a std weight across the board for S2 and stock style heads. BUT we have only a few stock style head cars in the class still. Ted is gone, I am looking to return but still have a car to finish. Steve Hughes is making an attempt to return last time we spoke. Other than Don I don't know of anyone else even close to 170mph. There are still SEVERAL S2 head cars out there running that now or are very close.

In all I say leave the rules be another year. I don't see any combo having any significant advantage over the other the way they are written now and its really not fair to change rules based on one racers performance at the end of the season.

It would be nice to come up with something to encourage the TSL cars into the field. I don't think the weight is going to work and am not sure if a staggered tree would work either. Any ideas/suggstions?

Leave a wt penalty for stock style heads, keep the 88mm cars heavy (although I dont think it'll matter in leveling the playing field) and you may attract a few but doubt it.

Scott and I talked awhile ago about having a single class with TSO TSM and TSL and indexing the three. This would make elims a single class even though it would be four different point series being run and points are tallied per class. Make the index 8.50, 9.0 and 9.50 and qualifying be all out and separate for each class. Each class does their own peer tech and rules like it is now. Base the tree on qualifying order pairing like classes whenever possible for elims etc.

It would make logistics easy for race directors, easier to raise money from sponsors and increased car count and class participation. The avg Joe has a shot at winning and the top guys can still try to be the top dawg by running the numbers in qualifying. I was heading in this direction especially with raising sponsor money until others had a better view and ideas for TSM.

 

[Buicksx2]

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[Brad T]

I just want a car that runs again .

 

[DFISCUS]

Rules

For what its worth I feel that the weight should be the same for both styles of heads. Back when the record was held by a production headed car there was still 100 pounds thrown at the stage headed guys because of a lot of "what ifs". Now that the speed record is again held by production heads its only fair that the right thing is finally done and the weight is made the same.

As far as the turbos go, everyone already has a 47-88 as far as I know so I could see leaving it alone. BUT there is also a good case for the pro mod as it will help us compete with the local heads up guys.

Also the liquid coolers should have a weight penalty of 100 lbs for the hp advantage that they afford. This point could be argued till the cows come home but I feel those coolers and the next step that they lead to will just get us further away from what this is all about.

I usually try to stay out of these things because I dont want to get in any arguments with anyone but I thought what the hell.

Oh I almost forgot, 3000 lbs is ok with me.

Dave Fiscus

 

[DFISCUS]

I meant to say 3300 lbs but I figuire everyone knew that. By the way where is everyone?

Dave Fiscus

 

[S2V6RACER]

I think I raced maybe 2 times and was teched, all the other races we just raced. It's funny year after year the rules get discussed and argued and perhaps keep some from even showing up, but yet we are starving for car count at the events. Cut the B.S. 88 turbo 3300# and tires. The class is not growing it is dieing so let others build their cars to run other events as well. Liquid intercoolers are allowed everywhere else 7 second cars compete, we don't want liquids because it takes from the class, is that why we race with 8.50 cages too? Now this class has BECOME a 8.49 and faster class what's going to happen with this? We need to enforce 25.5 cages so who really cares if there are liquids in the car.

 

[baadgn]

I think I raced maybe 2 times and was teched, all the other races we just raced. It's funny year after year the rules get discussed and argued and perhaps keep some from even showing up, but yet we are starving for car count at the events. Cut the B.S. 88 turbo 3300# and tires. The class is not growing it is dieing so let others build their cars to run other events as well. Liquid intercoolers are allowed everywhere else 7 second cars compete, we don't want liquids because it takes from the class, is that why we race with 8.50 cages too? Now this class has BECOME a 8.49 and faster class what's going to happen with this? We need to enforce 25.5 cages so who really cares if there are liquids in the car.

Ted brings up a point that i have been trying to drive home for a long time, This is an outlaw class and now we are in the the 7's. Alot of the outlaw classes have there turbo cars at 3300 and there running v8's. We are stressing the hell out of are motor's and we should be heavy makes no sense. I say 3300# 88 turbo stock style suspension done..... This is the baddest buick class most of these cars are able to run in the qwick 8 at buick events if there is a dominent setup that can be addressed later. Stage 2 heads got penalized when stock style heads still had the record because of what it looked on paper, well Don just sh*t on that paper!!!!
so should the stage 2 heads now get a break ?. keep it simple and lets see were the cards fall.