TSO rules for 2011
- Thread starter III'S 87 GN
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Max tire size is 29.5 x 10.5w last I knew so if you want to run smaller tire or radial then you must be thinking there is a advantage so don't expect a weight break. Any 88 turbo, a turbine housing because it's got a v-band isn't going to make more power, it weighs a little less. Let guys build their cars to a basic set of rules, weight, turbo and tire.
I think Rich Rezes has a TSO car as well so that makes one more to the list.
I think Rich Rezes has a TSO car as well so that makes one more to the list.
Whatever happens with the rules needs to be decided soon so we all have time to get prepared for the upcoming season. I think that Cal is more than capable of organizing the TSO races and Holly has done a great job of getting sponsor money for BG and the Reynolds. This is a thankless job and I sure as heck dont have the patience or the time to do it. I helped out a little at a event that Chris couldnt attend and between running my car and getting everything set I was wore-out.Also, A simple set of rules are fine with me.
Merry Christmas,
Dave Fiscus
Merry Christmas,
Dave Fiscus
TSL cars
If you guys are going to lower the weight for TSO, what the benefit going to be if you want the TSL cars in the field?
For what I understand, are these the weight rules:?
WEIGHTS:
3300# for any turbo up to an 82mm
3400# for a 83mm to an 88mm turbo
** All weights will have a five pound error factor for scale inconsistency
ADDITIONS:
-50# for compressor cover larger than H cover on 83mm and larger turbos
-100# for any turbine housing flange other than a T4 on turbos larger than 82mm on Stage 2 head cars
-100# for a liquid IC
Deductions:
-100# for production style heads
The minimum for TSL is 3400#. So for me to race TSO, I could be at 3200# but I'll have to swiss cheese the car and gut everything to get down to that weight. If you guys drop down to the 3250-3300# area, what's the benefit for TSL cars to run TSO?
Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com
If you guys are going to lower the weight for TSO, what the benefit going to be if you want the TSL cars in the field?
For what I understand, are these the weight rules:?
WEIGHTS:
3300# for any turbo up to an 82mm
3400# for a 83mm to an 88mm turbo
** All weights will have a five pound error factor for scale inconsistency
ADDITIONS:
-50# for compressor cover larger than H cover on 83mm and larger turbos
-100# for any turbine housing flange other than a T4 on turbos larger than 82mm on Stage 2 head cars
-100# for a liquid IC
Deductions:
-100# for production style heads
The minimum for TSL is 3400#. So for me to race TSO, I could be at 3200# but I'll have to swiss cheese the car and gut everything to get down to that weight. If you guys drop down to the 3250-3300# area, what's the benefit for TSL cars to run TSO?
Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com
If someone with 76 wants to race a class, that has for the most part all 88's then either they have to lighten the car up, or buy a bigger turbo its that simple. 3200 lbs is doable, but it takes money, a lot of fiberglass but it can be done. A 88 turbo can be had for as little as $1900 so there are choices.
I agree keep the rules simple and lets get them finalized it looks like Cal is willing to take the bull by the horn. Lets get these rules ironed, out so we can start building
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- Jun 18, 2001
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Cal, Most if not all the ambiguous and restrictive rules stem from the GSCA race. Are you planning to simplify the rules for BG?
The rules for the point series are already pretty simple there are basically 9 rules mostly aimed at have a buick regal a V6 stock suspension, tire and 88mm turbo. There are some weight additions and deductions that can be played with but I see no reason to change to core set of rules. They are already pretty bare bones and simple to follow.
I am opposed to ANY rule changes regarding the turbo. Specifically what is written in rule #6 not necessarily what is written in the weights section. We have had WAY to many controversies over the the turbo rule and it should be left alone. I'm opposed to V-band turbine housings and to larger turbine wheels.
Here is my suggestions for next year new stuff in bold:
INTENT: This a heads up class for 81-87 Buick regal bodied cars running single turbo Buick V6 engines and stock style rear suspension with a 10.5" tire. The class is to be run on a .400 pro-tree and on a pro-ladder, no 1st round mechanical or no show bye runs. All cars must have all applicable safety equipment for speeds obtained and must be able to pass host track safety tech. All entrants SHOULD have the necessary equipment to be able to run faster than 9.99. Host track safety tech will make all decisions concerning safety tech of vehicles competing in the TSO top Gun Point Series and it is the drivers responsibility to make sure their car meets ALL host track requirements.
Class minimum weight is 3200#
1. BODY: 1981-1987 Regal body required with stock firewall location and full stock frame with stock wheelbase required (108.0" measured). Frame modifications for roll cages, safety, tire size and cross member clearance are allowed. Frame notching for tire clearance is allowed but the inner frame rail can not be modified or moved from its stock location. Four functioning headlights and taillights required. Light weight aftermarket body panels allowed. No pin on doors or front ends allowed. Doors must have door panels and be functional with functional windows allowed.
2. EXHAUST: Optional
3. FRONT SUSPENSION: Must have stock mounting locations. Any aftermarket bolt on part is allowed. Rack and pinion conversions are allowed. NO SPINDLE MOUNT WHEELS ALLOWED
4. REAR SUSPENSION: must maintain factory mounting locations on the frame. Coil over conversion allowed, sway bar and panhard bar modifications are allowed. Must maintain factory 4-link arrangement. Any automotive type solid axle housing allowed.
5. TIRES: Any sidewall designation 10.5" tire allowed on 82mm and smaller turbo cars all larger turbos are only allowed to run commercially available and accepted 275/60 drag radials
6. TURBO: Maximum compressor wheel size is 88.0 mm /3.464” - inducer wheel diameter and exducer diameter of 127mm/5.000". A maximum tubine exducer diameter of 93mm/3.66". Inlet housing is permitted a maximum inlet diameter of 3.544”where the leading edge of the compressor wheel meets the housing. Turbos with compressor wheel inducer diameters of 82mm and smaller will have no limit on compressor exducer size and turbine size. Large frame thumper series turbos are not allowed in any configuration. Turbine and compressor housings must carry a manufacturer part number that is readily available to the general public prior to Jan1 of the current race season.
Compressor wheel to housing clearance must maintain a maximum of 0.080” clearance beginning from a) where the leading edge of the compressor wheel meets the inlet of the compressor housing to b) the transition point where the trailing edge of the compressor wheel meets the volute. All air entering the turbocharger must pass through the turbocharger inlet. Injection of any liquid, gas, or any other substance into the inlet or exhaust housing prohibited. Turbocharger compressor wheel must be constructed of cast or billet aluminum. Exotic material wheels prohibited. The tips of the impeller wheel may not be stepped, cut down, or notched to meet impeller tip-to-tip dimension. (.500-inch will define the tip of the impeller wheel).
REMOVE
Turbo must be located within the factory engine compartment with stock turbo orientation. The turbo must not be mounted forward of the factory core support and the inlet has to be facing the drivers side of the car and mounted as close to the stock location as possible. The crossover pipe can be in any location.
Any competitor is subject to inspection and removal of compressor housing. If protested by another competitor, the protesting competitor is required to put up $100 which will be given up if the turbo is found to be legal. Anyone found to be illegal or unwilling to remove the compressor cover for inspection will be automatically dis-qualified and removed from the point series.
7. TRANSMISSION: Any GM automatic transmission w/ any torque converter allowed. No Lenco, Liberty or manual transmissions with or without clutch allowed.
8. FUEL: Gasoline fuel only, no additives, alcohol, or nitrous oxide injection allowed. No additional injection/spray of any sort in or on the motor, turbo, IC, drive train etc. NOS bottle(s) shall not be on vehicle during competition or qualifying.
9. Interior: Stock appearing dashboard and passenger seat required, door panels required, interior must be carpeted and as close to factory appearing as possible. Rear seat may be removed, but area shall be carpeted.
WEIGHTS:
3200# for any turbo up to an 82mm
3400# for a 83mm to an 88mm turbo
** All weights will have a five pound error factor for scale inconsistency
ADDITIONS:
-100# for a liquid IC
The rules for the point series are already pretty simple there are basically 9 rules mostly aimed at have a buick regal a V6 stock suspension, tire and 88mm turbo. There are some weight additions and deductions that can be played with but I see no reason to change to core set of rules. They are already pretty bare bones and simple to follow.
I am opposed to ANY rule changes regarding the turbo. Specifically what is written in rule #6 not necessarily what is written in the weights section. We have had WAY to many controversies over the the turbo rule and it should be left alone. I'm opposed to V-band turbine housings and to larger turbine wheels.
Here is my suggestions for next year new stuff in bold:
INTENT: This a heads up class for 81-87 Buick regal bodied cars running single turbo Buick V6 engines and stock style rear suspension with a 10.5" tire. The class is to be run on a .400 pro-tree and on a pro-ladder, no 1st round mechanical or no show bye runs. All cars must have all applicable safety equipment for speeds obtained and must be able to pass host track safety tech. All entrants SHOULD have the necessary equipment to be able to run faster than 9.99. Host track safety tech will make all decisions concerning safety tech of vehicles competing in the TSO top Gun Point Series and it is the drivers responsibility to make sure their car meets ALL host track requirements.
Class minimum weight is 3200#
1. BODY: 1981-1987 Regal body required with stock firewall location and full stock frame with stock wheelbase required (108.0" measured). Frame modifications for roll cages, safety, tire size and cross member clearance are allowed. Frame notching for tire clearance is allowed but the inner frame rail can not be modified or moved from its stock location. Four functioning headlights and taillights required. Light weight aftermarket body panels allowed. No pin on doors or front ends allowed. Doors must have door panels and be functional with functional windows allowed.
2. EXHAUST: Optional
3. FRONT SUSPENSION: Must have stock mounting locations. Any aftermarket bolt on part is allowed. Rack and pinion conversions are allowed. NO SPINDLE MOUNT WHEELS ALLOWED
4. REAR SUSPENSION: must maintain factory mounting locations on the frame. Coil over conversion allowed, sway bar and panhard bar modifications are allowed. Must maintain factory 4-link arrangement. Any automotive type solid axle housing allowed.
5. TIRES: Any sidewall designation 10.5" tire allowed on 82mm and smaller turbo cars all larger turbos are only allowed to run commercially available and accepted 275/60 drag radials
6. TURBO: Maximum compressor wheel size is 88.0 mm /3.464” - inducer wheel diameter and exducer diameter of 127mm/5.000". A maximum tubine exducer diameter of 93mm/3.66". Inlet housing is permitted a maximum inlet diameter of 3.544”where the leading edge of the compressor wheel meets the housing. Turbos with compressor wheel inducer diameters of 82mm and smaller will have no limit on compressor exducer size and turbine size. Large frame thumper series turbos are not allowed in any configuration. Turbine and compressor housings must carry a manufacturer part number that is readily available to the general public prior to Jan1 of the current race season.
Compressor wheel to housing clearance must maintain a maximum of 0.080” clearance beginning from a) where the leading edge of the compressor wheel meets the inlet of the compressor housing to b) the transition point where the trailing edge of the compressor wheel meets the volute. All air entering the turbocharger must pass through the turbocharger inlet. Injection of any liquid, gas, or any other substance into the inlet or exhaust housing prohibited. Turbocharger compressor wheel must be constructed of cast or billet aluminum. Exotic material wheels prohibited. The tips of the impeller wheel may not be stepped, cut down, or notched to meet impeller tip-to-tip dimension. (.500-inch will define the tip of the impeller wheel).
REMOVE
Turbo must be located within the factory engine compartment with stock turbo orientation. The turbo must not be mounted forward of the factory core support and the inlet has to be facing the drivers side of the car and mounted as close to the stock location as possible. The crossover pipe can be in any location.
Any competitor is subject to inspection and removal of compressor housing. If protested by another competitor, the protesting competitor is required to put up $100 which will be given up if the turbo is found to be legal. Anyone found to be illegal or unwilling to remove the compressor cover for inspection will be automatically dis-qualified and removed from the point series.
7. TRANSMISSION: Any GM automatic transmission w/ any torque converter allowed. No Lenco, Liberty or manual transmissions with or without clutch allowed.
8. FUEL: Gasoline fuel only, no additives, alcohol, or nitrous oxide injection allowed. No additional injection/spray of any sort in or on the motor, turbo, IC, drive train etc. NOS bottle(s) shall not be on vehicle during competition or qualifying.
9. Interior: Stock appearing dashboard and passenger seat required, door panels required, interior must be carpeted and as close to factory appearing as possible. Rear seat may be removed, but area shall be carpeted.
WEIGHTS:
3200# for any turbo up to an 82mm
3400# for a 83mm to an 88mm turbo
** All weights will have a five pound error factor for scale inconsistency
ADDITIONS:
-100# for a liquid IC
IMO, BG needs to be forgotten to get this done... What ever they decide to do for their race shouldn't effect the rest of the season...
Get the damn cars where they can compete with other cars too at similar weights etc... I know I will never build another TR class specific car...
Get the damn cars where they can compete with other cars too at similar weights etc... I know I will never build another TR class specific car...
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- Jun 18, 2001
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My sentiments exactly. I kind of laugh at the griping over the class being to restrictive when all the goofy concessions and rules are mostly put in for BG at the request of the class RRA.
The point series rules are pretty basic and in line with most street car class rules outside the Buick world. The only things making the class more specific is having to have a Buick Regal body, a Buick V6 and a class specific turbo rule.
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- Jun 18, 2001
- Messages
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My only real question, after two pages of debate, is to have a point series you need to have racers racing for points, who's actually showing up
I raced this class for 6 seasons solid showing up for pretty much every race. I saw the same guys at every race some of which have moved on. I spent countless hours of my time and money putting together a point series and sponsors and for what? To have had to endure personal attacks and accusations and back door politics.
IMO build your car the way you want it for yourself. Show up and support the Buick race events. If you are serious and want to race we will find a way to make your combo fit. There simply are not enough hardcore Buick racers left out there to support a single Buick race class point series with sponsors etc.
I raced this class for 6 seasons solid showing up for pretty much every race. I saw the same guys at every race some of which have moved on. I spent countless hours of my time and money putting together a point series and sponsors and for what? To have had to endure personal attacks and accusations and back door politics.
IMO build your car the way you want it for yourself. Show up and support the Buick race events. If you are serious and want to race we will find a way to make your combo fit. There simply are not enough hardcore Buick racers left out there to support a single Buick race class point series with sponsors etc.
What!?! Where did you come up with that? We ran the points series rules at BG this year. I'm trying to remember if you were even at BG
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- Jun 18, 2001
- Messages
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What!?! Where did you come up with that? We ran the points series rules at BG this year. I'm trying to remember if you were even at BG
Most of the goofy rules in the 2010 point series rules are the result of concessions made for various reasons mostly to race at BG. I was addressing that issue which has been brought up by racers in this thread. Don't get your panties in a wad
I realize more than most what you have done to get us all on the same page and we've both worked pretty hard to get something going. That statement above is more directed at the GSCA and not you:wink:Cal, don't feel like you are stepping on my toes if you want to start a point series have at it. I am a racer and spectator at this point. Besides you are pretty much the only vendor left that supports the classes and your customers are the only ones left racing the classes. I'll just offer my input, and help out if I can. If I have my car done I may show up for a race next year.
I'm not sure what personal attacks you are referring to. I said early on, that I did not intend to step on anyones toes. Since you haven't been around much this year, I offered to get things going and assist the racers in deciding what is best for the class. I like the idea of they guys racing the class deciding rather than telling them "this is the way it's going to be".
I can relate to the dedication it takes. I don't know of anyone who goes to more Buick races than I do.
Edit: I posted this while you were responding above. I think we are on the same sheet. Let's get the rules sorted out and I will see what kind of $$ I can get for the class.
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Cal not directed at you buddy, see my post above. We didn't have any racers for a point series this year well other than Fiscus
Ok, back to the rules...Just so I'm clear. We are working off of the point series rules and not the GSCA rules. Here's what we've got so far:
Chris: You are suggesting keeping the weights and turbos the same and removing the turbo location and exhaust rules. In addition, everyone run on 275's except 82mm and smaller
Don, Tony, Dusty, Ted & Will: You are suggesting any 88 and one set weight for everyone
Dave: You are suggesting keep the turbo the same, 3300# for everyone with a 100# liquid penalty
Bobby, Manny & Lrayzer: You like 3300# for everyone
Chris: You are suggesting keeping the weights and turbos the same and removing the turbo location and exhaust rules. In addition, everyone run on 275's except 82mm and smaller
Don, Tony, Dusty, Ted & Will: You are suggesting any 88 and one set weight for everyone
Dave: You are suggesting keep the turbo the same, 3300# for everyone with a 100# liquid penalty
Bobby, Manny & Lrayzer: You like 3300# for everyone
Cal, thanks for asking. As you know I have sponsored the class befroe, had customers race in it and always tried to help with any race class that I can.
So we willhave to see how tings go for this year.
Cheers, Kip
