TSO rules for 2011

[Dusty Bradford]

Ok, back to the rules...Just so I'm clear. We are working off of the point series rules and not the GSCA rules. Here's what we've got so far:

Chris: You are suggesting keeping the weights and turbos the same and removing the turbo location and exhaust rules. In addition, everyone run on 275's except 82mm and smaller

Don, Tony, Dusty, Ted & Will: You are suggesting any 88 and one set weight for everyone

Dave: You are suggesting keep the turbo the same, 3300# for everyone with a 100# liquid penalty

Bobby, Manny & Lrayzer: You like 3300# for everyone

I hate to even comment since I'll never own a TSO car. The new X275 rules which will be ran all over the south and up the east coast now allow a GT-55 88mm. I'm not sure if anyone like Dave or Tony plan to run those events but I bet they will. This class is about to become the largest class ever ran for the street type cars. For the 1st time since the early 90's a Buick will have a place to race and compete outside the Buick racing world where it actually has a chance. Those who race TSO will ultimately decide what's best for them. I'd love to see this class dump all the crazy rules and just stick to the basics. 28" tires, stock suspension, 88mm and a some weight rules. Bring something new to the class. Forward facing turbo's or whatever.

 

[SGRIM]

I hate to even comment since I'll never own a TSO car. The new X275 rules which will be ran all over the south and up the east coast now allow a GT-55 88mm. I'm not sure if anyone like Dave or Tony plan to run those events but I bet they will. This class is about to become the largest class ever ran for the street type cars. For the 1st time since the early 90's a Buick will have a place to race and compete outside the Buick racing world where it actually has a chance. Those who race TSO will ultimately decide what's best for them. I'd love to see this class dump all the crazy rules and just stick to the basics. 28" tires, stock suspension, 88mm and a some weight rules. Bring something new to the class. Forward facing turbo's or whatever.

Agreed! This is the "outlaw" class:biggrin:

 

[Brad T]

Don't know about the new turbos but we could just add a weight penalty if anyone wants to run one .

 

[turbobuick]

I hate to even comment since I'll never own a TSO car. The new X275 rules which will be ran all over the south and up the east coast now allow a GT-55 88mm. I'm not sure if anyone like Dave or Tony plan to run those events but I bet they will. This class is about to become the largest class ever ran for the street type cars. For the 1st time since the early 90's a Buick will have a place to race and compete outside the Buick racing world where it actually has a chance. Those who race TSO will ultimately decide what's best for them. I'd love to see this class dump all the crazy rules and just stick to the basics. 28" tires, stock suspension, 88mm and a some weight rules. Bring something new to the class. Forward facing turbo's or whatever.

If we had 15 or 20 guys this is something we could do; but we don't. Most racers are going to shy away from the class as it stands due to the speed these cars are running and the expense of getting there. At this point making it faster isn't going to help. Keeping the big guns in the class heavy and on small tires might entice some of the TSL type cars to participate. Not to mention most guys already own a turbo changing that rule is just added expense for existing racers.

I haven't purchased a turbo yet so it doesn't matter to me. A class with 1 or 2 cars running or a field with 5-6 cars and only 1 or 2 that care competitive doesn't sound like fun to me as a racer or spectator. I am opening to just about any rule change other than the turbo.

FYI I believe Kip was a point series sponsor in 2007 and 2008. In addition he made the 82mm and 88mm plugs for the class.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

If we had 15 or 20 guys this is something we could do; but we don't. Most racers are going to shy away from the class as it stands due to the speed these cars are running and the expense of getting there. At this point making it faster isn't going to help. Keeping the big guns in the class heavy and on small tires might entice some of the TSL type cars to participate. Not to mention most guys already own a turbo changing that rule is just added expense for existing racers.

I haven't purchased a turbo yet so it doesn't matter to me. A class with 1 or 2 cars running or a field with 5-6 cars and only 1 or 2 that care competitive doesn't sound like fun to me as a racer or spectator. I am opening to just about any rule change other than the turbo.

FYI I believe Kip was a point series sponsor in 2007 and 2008. In addition he made the 82mm and 88mm plugs for the class.

I agree that the performance of a few cars has put a wide gap between the field and a turbo change could further widen the gap.


A class with 1 or 2 cars running or a field with 5-6 cars and only 1 or 2 that care competitive doesn't sound like fun to me as a racer or spectator.

Which is the whole problem. Only the hardcore Buick racers will spend the $$$ and time to run this class and there just isn't much of them around. The ones running it are doing it strictly out of love for the cars. Will a turbo rule really run anyone off?

 

[Sydwyndr]

What you guys may want to do is find a series sponsor for 5-7 race throught the year and just come up with your OWN class with simplified rules and forget the GSCA ones. Seems that most of you are on or near the same page with a few snags here and there but nothing that cant be ironed out. Something like maybe "TeRRA". "Turbo Regal Racers Association" or something. Just keep the rules simple around maybe 3 things: Suspension, Weight (3200 76 turbo, 3400 88 Turbo), and Tire....
Just a thought... You HAVE TO keep it simplified as much as possible.

 

[Mike E]

Loosening up the rules will do a few things. It will give room for more cars to compete, make the cars cheaper to build and possibly allow crossover to other series. It will also allow for some innovation, which is good for buick racing and good for sponsors who supply that innovation.

Dropping the weights is a good thing. Yes it makes the class faster, but it helps the slow cars just as much if not more than the faster cars. It cuts down on breakage thus keeping costs down. It can also be virtually free for everyone. It also makes the cars safer.


I'm back and forth between building my car for TSO, TSM or just putting a v8 in it. I would really like to keep it v6 because I'm a purist. I think the TSO cars could easily cross over to X275, but the current rules for TSO would make the cars a little uncompetitive in X275. And a car built for X275 rules would be uncompetitve in TSO mostly due to weights. For the PURS series in Alabama, a 275 radial V6 powered car with a water to air and an 88 can weigh 3000 lbs. That combination would have to add 4-500 lbs to race TSO. And Dusty is right, X275 is going to be absolutely huge and a v6 buick could be really competitive.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

I'm back and forth between building my car for TSO, TSM or just putting a v8 in it. I would really like to keep it v6 because I'm a purist. I think the TSO cars could easily cross over to X275, but the current rules for TSO would make the cars a little uncompetitive in X275. And a car built for X275 rules would be uncompetitve in TSO mostly due to weights. For the PURS series in Alabama, a 275 radial V6 powered car with a water to air and an 88 can weigh 3000 lbs. That combination would have to add 4-500 lbs to race TSO. And Dusty is right, X275 is going to be absolutely huge and a v6 buick could be really competitive.

I've expressed my opinion on the PURS rules. Probably will never see a V6 Buick at 3000# unless built specifically for that class but at least they are encouraging them to come out. There was a Syclone that was competitive at the ORTC race in Ultimate street. He ran 5.20's with an 80mm. I'm sure there will be some Buicks showing up to the 275 races this year.

 

[turbobuick]

I agree that the performance of a few cars has put a wide gap between the field and a turbo change could further widen the gap.


A class with 1 or 2 cars running or a field with 5-6 cars and only 1 or 2 that care competitive doesn't sound like fun to me as a racer or spectator.

Which is the whole problem. Only the hardcore Buick racers will spend the $$$ and time to run this class and there just isn't much of them around. The ones running it are doing it strictly out of love for the cars. Will a turbo rule really run anyone off?

IMO Yes and here is why...

You are correct there are only a handful of hardcore racers and even less of them who are willing or have the means to put up the kind of $$ needed to maintain and compete in a point series. But spread out among the alphabet soup of race classes there are several enthusiast that would and do participate and could make for some competitive racing.

Take the production head rule everyone is bitching about. That single rule likely produced at least four cars in the field. At the end of 2008 season most guys running production style heads where having serious doubts about their ability to complete with S2 heads. The wt break kept me in the game, likely enticed Ted to motor on, is bringing Steve Hughes back into the mix and I can't speak for Don but he was racing TSM back then. That rule allowed some hardcore TSM guys to even consider the class since all they really need is a block and turbo to complete.

Now here we are once again looking at this turbo rule. We have have lost several of the hardcore TSO guys that ran the class on a consistent basis. We have several TSL type cars running in the mid 8's and you guys want to "open" up the rules and "simplify" the class with allowing a larger turbo in and further distancing the top TSO guys from the rest of the Buick world.

That is a class killer IMO.

I'm not sure if you are aware of the volumes of internet msg board space that is occupied over the debates that lead up to the current rule. Opening that can of worms again is just beyond my comprehension. If you guys want to have a meaningful class with competitive racing you need to start looking at who actually is showing up at these events and try getting them all under one class.

Opening the turbo rule up for debate also opens up the head rule IMO. At some point the when the turbo becomes sufficiently large enough the S2 head will prevail and have an advantage. I'm also not 100% convinced there isn't some advantage even at this point.

Cal, Clint or whoever is going to craft a new set of rules. I am taking a hard stance on the turbo issue. If you guys change it I am not coming back. If you want to simplify it make the billet or cast wheel PTE GT4788 the ONLY 88mm turbo allowed in the class.

 

[turbobuick]

I've expressed my opinion on the PURS rules. Probably will never see a V6 Buick at 3000# unless built specifically for that class but at least they are encouraging them to come out. There was a Syclone that was competitive at the ORTC race in Ultimate street. He ran 5.20's with an 80mm. I'm sure there will be some Buicks showing up to the 275 races this year.

I am building such car. My new car should be able to come in close to and hopefully under 3000# with my V6. I am changing NOTHING in my motor program and running pretty much the exact motor I ran in 2009 at least to start with. An 80mm turbo in the TSO rules I proposed above only has to weigh 3200#. Maybe I'll have two turbos one for TSO under 82mm and one for 275x. What a concept, lol.

 

[S2V6RACER]

Chris, in case you didn't notice you can weigh in at #2800 at Milan in the same series I am running in. I can't imagine how bad azz and fast your car would be at this weight. I hope you consider running up here with us. I'll save you a spot. Run once a month and there is talk about the event running in Indy once a month also....


V6 Any Combo -500 #2800

 

[turbobuick]

Chris, in case you didn't notice you can weigh in at #2800 at Milan in the same series I am running in. I can't imagine how bad azz and fast your car would be at this weight. I hope you consider running up here with us. I'll save you a spot. Run once a month and there is talk about the event running in Indy once a month also....


V6 Any Combo -500 #2800

Milan, Norwalk and even the event at Thompson are what I am building the car for. The few events I did with my GN at Norwalk and Milan were an absolute blast. I'm shooting for 2800#'s but I don't think I can easily get there with a Buick and I have absolutely NO desire to run a Mustang chassis.

I am starting with the V6 motor simply because I have it and there is no guess work there. Once this motor retires I will be probably be going to something procharger.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Chris, in case you didn't notice you can weigh in at #2800 at Milan in the same series I am running in. I can't imagine how bad azz and fast your car would be at this weight. I hope you consider running up here with us. I'll save you a spot. Run once a month and there is talk about the event running in Indy once a month also....


V6 Any Combo -500 #2800

I do think the rules will be the same for the races at Indy. I met Kurt who is running Indy now at PRI. Several if us went over the rules with him over a few beers:biggrin: I hope to make a few of them as he allowed the big block boosted into the 275 class but I would have to add weight. I think it's 3500 or 3550 with an 88mm inlet rule for me.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

IMO Yes and here is why...

You are correct there are only a handful of hardcore racers and even less of them who are willing or have the means to put up the kind of $$ needed to maintain and compete in a point series. But spread out among the alphabet soup of race classes there are several enthusiast that would and do participate and could make for some competitive racing.

Take the production head rule everyone is bitching about. That single rule likely produced at least four cars in the field. At the end of 2008 season most guys running production style heads where having serious doubts about their ability to complete with S2 heads. The wt break kept me in the game, likely enticed Ted to motor on, is bringing Steve Hughes back into the mix and I can't speak for Don but he was racing TSM back then. That rule allowed some hardcore TSM guys to even consider the class since all they really need is a block and turbo to complete.

Now here we are once again looking at this turbo rule. We have have lost several of the hardcore TSO guys that ran the class on a consistent basis. We have several TSL type cars running in the mid 8's and you guys want to "open" up the rules and "simplify" the class with allowing a larger turbo in and further distancing the top TSO guys from the rest of the Buick world.

That is a class killer IMO.

I'm not sure if you are aware of the volumes of internet msg board space that is occupied over the debates that lead up to the current rule. Opening that can of worms again is just beyond my comprehension. If you guys want to have a meaningful class with competitive racing you need to start looking at who actually is showing up at these events and try getting them all under one class.

Opening the turbo rule up for debate also opens up the head rule IMO. At some point the when the turbo becomes sufficiently large enough the S2 head will prevail and have an advantage. I'm also not 100% convinced there isn't some advantage even at this point.

Cal, Clint or whoever is going to craft a new set of rules. I am taking a hard stance on the turbo issue. If you guys change it I am not coming back. If you want to simplify it make the billet or cast wheel PTE GT4788 the ONLY 88mm turbo allowed in the class.

I fully understand all the reasoning. I just wasn't sure if many of the cars show up thinking they have a chance at winning or if they just show up to support the class and have a good time. I was thinking the latter.

I've tried the turbo swapping back and forth and you need ALOT of test passes to get everything right. Probably won't be as extreme as going from the 94 to 114 like I did but it's still a bit different. It's nice to run under the same rules from one org to the other so all your tune-up data is useful. For me launch boost, 2 step rpm, boost ramp, timing retards.....all had to be changed to make the different turbo's work.

 

[lrayzer]

Ok, back to the rules...Just so I'm clear. We are working off of the point series rules and not the GSCA rules. Here's what we've got so far:

Chris: You are suggesting keeping the weights and turbos the same and removing the turbo location and exhaust rules. In addition, everyone run on 275's except 82mm and smaller

Don, Tony, Dusty, Ted & Will: You are suggesting any 88 and one set weight for everyone

Dave: You are suggesting keep the turbo the same, 3300# for everyone with a 100# liquid penalty

Bobby, Manny & Lrayzer: You like 3300# for everyone

Yes I like the #3300 rule simply because I see it as achievable without spending huge $, 2nd every 100 lbs reduction helps reduce breakage.

What is the hang up with only the 275 tire ? This is the cheapest of all things that we racers can change, I've got no issue with a 305, 325 tire, we all know how these cars dance, once again safety is my primary thought.

I don't want to see this class evolve into the liquid IC, thru the firewall plumbing style setup, works great but not a street car.
Some semblance of factory turbo arrangement would be my preference, understanding that different headers etc may dictate some movement, but lets keep it passengerside forward of the cyl head justified as a quadrant.

Turbo's ??? way too much tech has evolved since my car was saddled with a 3 bolt 88 over 4 years ago, smaller turbos are now making more power, I leave that to you smart guys spend money, test them all and share a tip whan I afford a new one. (no need for me to be cutting edge, but I am up grading my 266 desktop this month)

Maybe our economy will improve now that we have leashed the idiot and I wil have some bonus money to finish this car.

 

[baadgn]

IMO Yes and here is why...

Opening the turbo rule up for debate also opens up the head rule IMO. At some point the when the turbo becomes sufficiently large enough the S2 head will prevail and have an advantage. I'm also not 100% convinced there isn't some advantage even at this point.

Cal, Clint or whoever is going to craft a new set of rules. I am taking a hard stance on the turbo issue. If you guys change it I am not coming back. If you want to simplify it make the billet or cast wheel PTE GT4788 the ONLY 88mm turbo allowed in the class.

Chris., the stock head is making the most power in TSO right now and you still feel the stage 2 head still has an advantage . Do you have any idea what it takes to make a stage 2 head accelerate to the 330" besides the stock style head has had 20 + years of refinment and improvements against a head with 20+ year old technolgy. You say that you havent bought a turbo yet and then say if the turbo rule opens up your out.... why ? if your going to run the local stuff at 3000 lbs and the pro mod is legal why would you not wanna run it especially with the stock style heads spool up should not be a big deal. what big gun harcore TSO racers have we lost. we have a quite a few building new cars and good amount of racers dave f, me, manny, roy, dave, avon, grandpas toy, cruz thats 8 cars now with a least 4 more being built... brad t, george thompson, dustys friend, steve huges. The head issue is dead untill proven wrong. Cruz seal that fate
he stepped up to the plate and turned it up well thats what dave and i been saying for years "TURN IT UP" WE DO simple rules so we can race at multi events and compete.

3300 lbs
any 88 turbo
+ 50 Liquid ic
- 50 275s
maybe we should ask whos gonna run away from this class with these rules, rather then making the same mistake with the small head big head debate and ASSume they will.

 

[turbobuick]

Chris., the stock head is making the most power in TSO right now and you still feel the stage 2 head still has an advantage . Do you have any idea what it takes to make a stage 2 head accelerate to the 330" besides the stock style head has had 20 + years of refinment and improvements against a head with 20+ year old technolgy. You say that you havent bought a turbo yet and then say if the turbo rule opens up your out.... why ? if your going to run the local stuff at 3000 lbs and the pro mod is legal why would you not wanna run it especially with the stock style heads spool up should not be a big deal. what big gun harcore TSO racers have we lost. we have a quite a few building new cars and good amount of racers dave f, me, manny, roy, dave, avon, grandpas toy, cruz thats 8 cars now with a least 4 more being built... brad t, george thompson, dustys friend, steve huges. The head issue is dead untill proven wrong. Cruz seal that fate
he stepped up to the plate and turned it up well thats what dave and i been saying for years "TURN IT UP" WE DO simple rules so we can race at multi events and compete.

3300 lbs
any 88 turbo
+ 50 Liquid ic
- 50 275s
maybe we should ask whos gonna run away from this class with these rules, rather then making the same mistake with the small head big head debate and ASSume they will.

I'm not debating the head issue I even took it out of the rules I posted above.

I want to see the turbo rule stay the same. I'm pretty sure Avon is going V8.

 

[baadgn]

I'm not debating the head issue I even took it out of the rules I posted above.

I want to see the turbo rule stay the same. I'm pretty sure Avon is going V8.

Avon,

is building a new motor by a new engine builder V6. He finally threw billy were billy belongs

 

[Bent6]

Don, Tony, Dusty, Ted & Will: You are suggesting any 88 and one set weight for everyone

Dave: You are suggesting keep the turbo the same, 3300# for everyone with a 100# liquid penalty

Bobby, Manny & Lrayzer: You like 3300# for everyone

Building a car around any class rules for any sanctioning body sucks at best due to the fact they always seem to be a moving target. Seems like what a lot of guys would like to see is a set of TSO rules that wouldn't castrate them if they want to run at events outside of the Buick world. I know I don't currently TSO but if I were to build a car for this class it would have to be competitive at local stuff as well since in all reality, most of us can only attend a few select Buick events throughout the year.

I'm suggesting ANY turbo period. If there's some genius out there who can make a V6 go faster with a 114 then let him have at it. You can only cram so much air in there so what's the big deal? For that matter, I think twins should be allowed if this is an OUTLAW class.

My major hangups with the rules as they stand now are the turbo location and size restrictions, liquid intercooler penalties, and the S2 head penalties. The enforcement of the safety requirements is another issue but I guess to each his own.

Again - if I were to race this class down I would like to see a SIMPLE set of rules something like this:

Buick V6 Powered / Buick Bodied
3200# minimum
Any Drag Radial
Stock type suspension w/ any aftermarket bolt-ons
Coil-Overs OK
Rear Inner frame rail in stock location

Just my .02 FWIW.

 

[HighPSI]

Does anyone object to a base weight of 3300#'s? It seems like everyone's posts are coming in around that area. If so, then we can determine what, if any other penalties we want to impose