TSO rules for 2011

[Brad T]

Still needs to look like a street car .

 

[baadgn]

Still needs to look like a street car .

yes it does, thats what makes this class so exciting.

 

[turbo-t]

my two cents

3300# sounds good to me:biggrin:

bobby don (the ole man with the slo buick)

 

[oldtimer]

OK Guys,

Lotsa opinions, guesses, assumptions and wishes on here with respect to the TSO rules for 2011.

Can we get someone in charge who can make some definate, concrete rules so that cars can be built to those rules. Race season is "fast" (no pun intended ) approaching.

I'd like to have the rules listed so I can print them out and put them on my shop wall. Ticking them off is quite motivating and with a definative list, everyone is dancing to the same music. No grey areas. No waltzes mixed with quick steps. When everyone is dancing the same dance, there's less chance of stepping on each other's toes.

Thanks,

George

 

[Bent6]

It's funny year after year the rules get discussed and argued and perhaps keep some from even showing up, but yet we are starving for car count at the events. Cut the B.S. 88 turbo 3300# and tires. The class is not growing it is dieing so let others build their cars to run other events as well. Liquid intercoolers are allowed everywhere else 7 second cars compete, we don't want liquids because it takes from the class, is that why we race with 8.50 cages too? Now this class has BECOME a 8.49 and faster class what's going to happen with this? We need to enforce 25.5 cages so who really cares if there are liquids in the car.

While I'm not a TSO racer I have contemplated possibly running this class in the future. FWIW this is my .02 on the class. What was said above has been my thought for the past couple of years. If this is truly an "outlaw" class, why all the rules? I can see having a weight limit as well as requiring stock inner frame rails and stock style suspension but that should be IT. The V6 is enough of a limitation in itself. Why the turbo limitation? Why is the intercooler even an issue? The S2 head vs stock style head thing needs to be buried. Make it a true OUTLAW run whachabrung and hopeyabrungenuff class where the cars could also cross over and run with some of the brand x-ers at non-Buick events and be competitive. It's hard to justify the cost of building a TSO car knowing it would be competitive at Buick events but not so much at other "outlaw" events. Since outlaw racing is where it's at these days, why is innovation and performance being limited in this class? Leave the cookie cutter rules and performance restrictions for all the other heads-up classes like TSL, TSM, THS, etc, etc.

Another observation I have made as well as several others I've spoken to is safety. I don't think I've ever seen a TSO car that is NHRA legal for the ETs. I know Tony's car is down for what I assume is a 25.5 upgrade - this should be mandatory and enforced. I'm not trying to be the party pooper but why would anyone want to tempt fate with a heavy car without the proper chassis? I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes but it's my opinion that safety should always come FIRST.

 

[baadgn]

While I'm not a TSO racer I have contemplated possibly running this class in the future. FWIW this is my .02 on the class. What was said above has been my thought for the past couple of years. If this is truly an "outlaw" class, why all the rules? I can see having a weight limit as well as requiring stock inner frame rails and stock style suspension but that should be IT. The V6 is enough of a limitation in itself. Why the turbo limitation? Why is the intercooler even an issue? The S2 head vs stock style head thing needs to be buried. Make it a true OUTLAW run whachabrung and hopeyabrungenuff class where the cars could also cross over and run with some of the brand x-ers at non-Buick events and be competitive. It's hard to justify the cost of building a TSO car knowing it would be competitive at Buick events but not so much at other "outlaw" events. Since outlaw racing is where it's at these days, why is innovation and performance being limited in this class? Leave the cookie cutter rules and performance restrictions for all the other heads-up classes like TSL, TSM, THS, etc, etc.

Another observation I have made as well as several others I've spoken to is safety. I don't think I've ever seen a TSO car that is NHRA legal for the ETs. I know Tony's car is down for what I assume is a 25.5 upgrade - this should be mandatory and enforced. I'm not trying to be the party pooper but why would anyone want to tempt fate with a heavy car without the proper chassis? I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes but it's my opinion that safety should always come FIRST.

Will,

Very well said !! it is an outlaw class been saying it for years "run whatcha brung". Makes no sense to build a car of this type caliber for just TSO, with 1/8 mile racing becoming more and more popular there are lots of classes that we can compete in. A lot of these races are close to home too and that nowadays is a big bonus

 

[GNBRETT]

Will,

Very well said !! it is an outlaw class been saying it for years "run whatcha brung". Makes no sense to build a car of this type caliber for just TSO, with 1/8 mile racing becoming more and more popular there are lots of classes that we can compete in. A lot of these races are close to home too and that nowadays is a big bonus

Tony how much more would one spend to build a car that could compete in an outlaw class? I mean how much more then a TSO build with the proper safety requirements 25.5? Just curious. I would assume it would be quite a bit no?

 

[Bent6]

Will,

Very well said !! it is an outlaw class been saying it for years "run whatcha brung". Makes no sense to build a car of this type caliber for just TSO, with 1/8 mile racing becoming more and more popular there are lots of classes that we can compete in. A lot of these races are close to home too and that nowadays is a big bonus

Same thing in my neck of the woods - 1/8 mile racing is where it's at. Reason I'm shelving my green car is the fact that there's no place for a big tired tube chassis car anymore. I could take that engine a build a competitive TSO car but I can't justify the time and money for a Buick event only car given the current set of rules. This is why I said the heck with it on my GS project and decided to build it to 25.3 and drop an LSX with twins between the rails - so it can hopefully be competitive in many events vs a few. Don't guess any of it matters much to me now - with our third kiddo on the way my racing will be limited to mostly local stuff for a while anyways.

Bottom line is I would like to see the Buick world open it's eyes to what's going on around it and quit limiting things. While these cars can still kick ass 25 years later, the fact is that the performance world has caught us and surpassed us from a performance standpoint. Why limit innovation with all the technology available today? Hopefully your car upgrades will set the standard going forward! Good luck.

 

[baadgn]

Tony how much more would one spend to build a car that could compete in an outlaw class? I mean how much more then a TSO build with the proper safety requirements 25.5? Just curious. I would assume it would be quite a bit no?

I could build a v8 turbo and kick ass in outlaw for less than what i have in my car for TSO now this is my choice, but its one that i have commited to. I got no problem bringing a knive to a gun fight, cause someones getting "stabbed" but dont force me to have a dull knive because i have to adhear to the limitations in buick TSOutlaw.

 

[oldtimer]

All the above suggestions and opinions are good ones BUT, there's still no definative rules. How do you go about building a competative TSO car to a smoke and mirror set of guesses and opinions.

Who is in charge of setting the rules in TSO.? I'm sorry if I'm stepping on someones toes here, but the fact remains, it does not appear that we have a set of definative rules that a TSO car can be built to and the first race ( Reynolds ) is just a few weeks away.

Yes, I'm trying to turn my street car into a competatve TSO car and it would be nice to know what the rules are

George

 

[Bent6]

I could build a v8 turbo and kick ass in outlaw for less than what i have in my car for TSO now this is my choice, but its one that i have commited to. I got no problem bringing a knive to a gun fight, cause someones getting "stabbed" but dont force me to have a dull knive because i have to adhear to the limitations in buick TSOutlaw.

EXACTLY!

I respect all the guys that stick to the V6 but the cards are stacked against it enough as it is. Same old crap it's been for years - usually there are little to no weight breaks for V6s IF they'll even allow a V6 to run most classes.

As far as the cost of 25.5 - it's really nothing in the grand scheme of things at this level. Personally, cost isn't an issue when it comes to my own safety!

Hope someone steps up with some rules for you guys. Best of luck!

 

[HighPSI]

Chris was in charge of the point series in 2009. I have always been the Race Rules Administrator (RRA) for the GSCA race. I have no problem grabbing the bull by the horns and getting things sorted out, I just didn't want to step on any toes.

 

[lrayzer]

Well, I'm building mine to be safe and do what I want it to do without spending "stupid" money I don't have.
I have put more cage in the car than most of what I have seen running this class, but I'm a fabricator and engineer by trade.
Car has a nice stage II that Hartline built, 88 turbo, 400 trans with a brake and will be street legal, but also has training wheels because I don't need to take chances with a project that has been 4 years in the works.
Look like a street car, run like stink, have fun.
3300 lbs sounds good, I'm sure I am over that now anyway but more money spent later may drop it. This combo is behind the curve of what I have seen discussed on turbo technology, but it will have to do and hopefully qualify in the bottom of the field.
If everyone else promises to pull the laundry on the starting line I "might" have a chance

If and when the car is finished and someone protests it, I will just run brackets and save the engine. But like everyone else, some very basic rules seem best, exhaust dump location included. Do I need fenderwells in TSO ?

 

[S2V6RACER]

Oh it's soooooo nice not worrying about this crap anymore.... Should this even be talked about???? It's real simple, real race organizations don't allow cars to run too fast without safety equipment. Tony is smart, he is stepping up his car to be safe and he also knows he will not be allowed to run anywhere else at his level without the 25.5. You guys have to step back and agree with Tony here he is 100% on the money so allow a guy to build a race car and race in the fastest heads up class in the Buick world and let him compete with the big boys somewhere else. Leave all this petty B.S. home and stop fooling yourself they are just street cars.

 

[oldtimer]

Oh it's soooooo nice not worrying about this crap anymore.... Should this even be talked about???? It's real simple, real race organizations don't allow cars to run too fast without safety equipment. Tony is smart, he is stepping up his car to be safe and he also knows he will not be allowed to run anywhere else at his level without the 25.5. You guys have to step back and agree with Tony here he is 100% on the money so allow a guy to build a race car and race in the fastest heads up class in the Buick world and let him compete with the big boys somewhere else. Leave all this petty B.S. home and stop fooling yourself they are just street cars.

It's even simpler than that. If you are running faster than 8:50, you need a 25.5 cage .. PERIOD ! That is not stated in the TSO rules ( as of yet )

OR create a new class for faster than 8.50 ( might be UTS ) Ultra Turbo Street.

In any event, we still need rules and SAFETY should be at the core of it all.

We need someone to step up to the plate and set up a set of rules in a clear cut, definative, precise fashion. Someone who has the experience, expertise and knowledge of what our cars can do. Cal has all but volunteered to be that person but he, as he stated, doesn't want to step on toes.

Well, I personally think that we need to put the concern for stepping on toes aside and replace it with a concern for SAFETY and yes, I think Tony is right on the money too.

Maybe we should all let Cal know that we support him in his offer to be the RRA and get on with things. OR maybe there might be someone else who is qualified that wants to put their hat in the ring. I believe that Cal would be an excellent choice. He would have my vote.

We need to stick together at any rate, as our Turbo Regals are an endangered species :wink:

George

 

[baadgn]

It's even simpler than that. If you are running faster than 8:50, you need a 25.5 cage .. PERIOD ! That is not stated in the TSO rules ( as of yet )

OR create a new class for faster than 8.50 ( might be UTS ) Ultra Turbo Street.

In any event, we still need rules and SAFETY should be at the core of it all.

We need someone to step up to the plate and set up a set of rules in a clear cut, definative, precise fashion. Someone who has the experience, expertise and knowledge of what our cars can do. Cal has all but volunteered to be that person but he, as he stated, doesn't want to step on toes.

Well, I personally think that we need to put the concern for stepping on toes aside and replace it with a concern for SAFETY and yes, I think Tony is right on the money too.

Maybe we should all let Cal know that we support him in his offer to be the RRA and get on with things. OR maybe there might be someone else who is qualified that wants to put their hat in the ring. I believe that Cal would be an excellent choice. He would have my vote.

We need to stick together at any rate, as our Turbo Regals are an endangered species :wink:

George

Cal, has my vote also he doesnt own a horse in this class, tunes on both small headed and big headed cars so no favoring either combo. Has the knowlege of a combo's capability and of drag racing 101. Cal and Holly have proven that they have the ability to generate good payouts. This year will be an exciting one I perdict 4-5 cars will be in the 7s this the premier buick heads up class lets run it like one. Ok back to workin on my $hit.

 

[HighPSI]

Well, for the sake of getting this reolved, I'll get things going. Here's how I see it, and I expect you guys to correct me and add your opinions. I am looking for feedback from ANYONE who plans on racing TSO next year, not just the previous racers. Based on what you guys posted, we need to look at:

Base weight for the class: I suggest 3300# regardless of cylinder head. I was against the S2 head penalty from the start.
Liquid intercooler penalty: I suggest 50#
Turbocharger: This is a touchy one. I suggest allowing any 88mm in with a 50# penalty for a tangental housing. The reason I say this is twofold. A) You will be able to get a tangental housing for a 47-88 this year and B) the 55-88 has not been proven to make more hp on our Buick V6's. To penalize it based on theory, is just like the S2 head penalty last year.

I would really like to get this class closer to the X275 rules, so the cars would be capable of racing at the multitude of other races out there. A couple of ways to do this is to lower the base weight to 3250 or maybe to offer a 50# weight break if you run the 275 tire. This could also make eliminations a lot more interesting. If I had a slower car, I might be willing to give up a few hundreths (whatever 50# equals) on the risk that the other guy might spin.

Just a bunch of ideas, you guys decide.

 

[HighPSI]

I would also like to put together a list of potential TSO racers and get their email addresses. My reasoning was so we could touch bases before a race and get an idea of potential car count. Then maybe push some of the guys who are on the fence about coming. I know of a couple races where guys wouldn't show up because they thought nobody else was going to go. I would really like to have an 8 car field. It would really help to generate payout money.

Here's who I can think of off the top of my head in no particular order:

1. Dave Fiscus
2. Don Cruz
3. Tony Gomes
4. Manny Espizo
5. Roy Garcia
6. Bobby Don
7. Chris Lyons
8. George Thompson
9. Avon Thorpe
10. Brad Tennison
11. Ted A's old car
12. Gene Cassidy
13. G-Body car (Art P)
14. Dave Leonhart

Plus the 4 TSL cars

 

[Dusty Bradford]

I agree Cal. The GT-55 should be allowed so those interested in running the X275 classes can do so without issues.

That has been the hang-up on Todd H's car from the beginning. Build a car for the 1-2 TSO races he may be able to make or build it for the local classes that he could run monthly without having to travel.

 

[III'S 87 GN]

Keep it simple

Why add for this and deduct for that..

Settle on a weight # and a turbo size and go race !!!


Cal I know you have the racers interest in mind so RUN with it. (thank you )