Turbo for a Series II motor??

[cstavro]

i have a 1999 buick regal gs. 240 hp supercharged stock. my goal is 500 whp with turbo (no s/c). i will be porting the heads and installing a 206/206 112° cam. buicks make tons of torque down low, but hit a brick wall too early. one tuner has a turbo kit that makes 438 wtq, and 296 whp at 3500 rpm!!

series II heads flow 186/148 cfm stock, and ~210/170 cfm ported - with stock valves. 3" intake and 2-2.5" intermediate pipe.

i'd like to go with headers, but may be more expense and work than i need. 3" downpipe and exhaust.

i'll have 60# injectors, proper tuning, etc to support the turbo.

i know i can use a t04e-50 through to t66 with a t3 0.82 a/r stg 5 turbine. and i'm sure i could use a gt6131E. i'm having trouble finding anyone that can say for sure how a certain turbo will react with my setup. and i haven't found anyone that makes a gt61 with t3 turbine housing. can i use a t4 turbine?

 

[xXch0dyXx]

did you check with matt at Stattama- High Performance Automotive he has a nice selection of turbos, or can get you one built if you want something in particular.

I had a pt61 on my 98 gs, and was 400whp daily driving.

Ide say a t66 if you will be driving it alot, or a t70 with a little higher than stock stall...

zzperformance also has a SS front powerlog that would help you out on your turbo setup, i think its only like $150, then you can just port the rear manifold.

I see your located in ontario, you could get ahold of Kevin at cartuning performance and he could give you a good recommendation since he builds a kit for the sII

HTH

 

[bison]

The 6776 BB will get it done nicely. Im suprised they cant get more flow out of the series II heads. Thats what a set of old RWD heads flows when ported with 1.77, 1.5 valves. 60 lb injectors are a little tight at 580 fwhp on a 6 cylinder. Your dc will be well over 80% assuming bsfc of .6lb hr/hp. 72's are a better choice. Torque converter selection and stand alone tuning will be key.

 

[bison]

Id also go with a cam in the 210 degree duration range and run a compression ratio of 9.0:1. Make sure you have the octane and enough fuel to feed it. It will make power up to 28 psi with good heads.

 

[cstavro]

f-1, for instance, runs 10.8 with a gt6152e and 60# injectors. a gt6776rs would be kick ass, but needs a 3000 rpm stall converter. maybe what i should have said is i want to go 10.9s at 125 mph. let the hp fall where it may. did i mention i want a smooth idle (sleeper), and stock torque converter? a 210 duration is already a little choppy with stock heads.

sunoco sells 94 octane, and shell has e-85 (104-105 for the price of regular) in toronto? (i know i'd need 90# injectors with e-85).

afa the heads...the aftermarket has only been working on it for several years (!), and the stock castings are thin. the ports are sized for 1.80" valves, and anything larger than 1.84" is on the point of diminishing returns. intense heads, with 1.9" valves, don't flow any more. i'm porting a head at the moment...i'll have it tested.

chody: i know a t4 60-1 with ported heads and a 206° cam will get me there. i'd love to go with a pt61 (ct rates it at 720 hp). how did you like the pt61? how was spool and top end? did it have a t4 turbine housing? what trim and a/r?

i work in a fab shop...so if anything, i'll make headers here. there are a few things i want that aren't being done. and i hate the idea of using a stock rear manifold...and putting the wastegate on half the engine.

cartuning won't answer my emails...and buick turbo resellers can't tell me how well a turbo will work on my car. i thought that a series 2, which has way better volumetric efficiency than the 3.8, will spool any turbo up quicker...but i'm not getting consensus.

thanks for your help guys.

 

[bison]

f-1, for instance, runs 10.8 with a gt6152e and 60# injectors. a gt6776rs would be kick ass, but needs a 3000 rpm stall converter. maybe what i should have said is i want to go 10.9s at 125 mph. let the hp fall where it may. did i mention i want a smooth idle (sleeper), and stock torque converter? a 210 duration is already a little choppy with stock heads.

sunoco sells 94 octane, and shell has e-85 (104-105 for the price of regular) in toronto? (i know i'd need 90# injectors with e-85).

afa the heads...the aftermarket has only been working on it for several years (!), and the stock castings are thin. the ports are sized for 1.80" valves, and anything larger than 1.84" is on the point of diminishing returns. intense heads, with 1.9" valves, don't flow any more. i'm porting a head at the moment...i'll have it tested.

chody: i know a t4 60-1 with ported heads and a 206° cam will get me there. i'd love to go with a pt61 (ct rates it at 720 hp). how did you like the pt61? how was spool and top end? did it have a t4 turbine housing? what trim and a/r?

i work in a fab shop...so if anything, i'll make headers here. there are a few things i want that aren't being done. and i hate the idea of using a stock rear manifold...and putting the wastegate on half the engine.

cartuning won't answer my emails...and buick turbo resellers can't tell me how well a turbo will work on my car. i thought that a series 2, which has way better volumetric efficiency than the 3.8, will spool any turbo up quicker...but i'm not getting consensus.

thanks for your help guys.

Like you stated its possible to go really fast on the minimum parts but i wouldnt select the minimum turbo for the deal. I would also not run the stock torque converter either if you can help it. Converter tech is so good these days you can have the great spool up down low and have the efficiency up top even with non locking units. The 210 shouldnt be too choppy with a 231 ci and a little compression. Ive ran it a few times over the last 7 years. The 206 would cut it but then again your bare boning the build and will have to run the thing hard to get the numbers. I think it will be very hard to run 125mph unless you are running 9.5:1 and 25-27 psi on the 6152 running c16. 105 octane wont cut it. The series II heads probably flow a lot better than the old rwd heads at low lifts but the numbers you stated in your first post are the expected numbers out of a 1.77/1.50 cnc'd rwd head. Ive seen them taken a little further than that also. The series II doesnt have any better mass efficiency than the old engine with the head flow numbers you stated unless you are comparing to a rwd with untouched heads on it. Then it surely does since they only flow high 150's intake and around 107cfm ex stock. There almost identical ported. Notching the block may help high lift flow on the series II with the bigger valves. I typically run a little over 9.0:1 and the pistons are at zero deck or slightly out of the hole with a thin cometic gasket and 27cc dished pistons. A 6776 3 bolt on that type of build will go 125 mph at 25 psi and weighing 3600 lbs in an old TR. Compression and a slightly lean a/f at spool up will increase the spool up a lot. Id go for a double BB if you want to retain the stock converter. The 61 will work but you are choking off a lot with the 52 trim. It will be easier to get the mph with the 76 trim but then again the stall speed will need to go up.

 

[cstavro]

wow. that's a lot to chew on. thank you. i'm considering a new converter. for a daily driver, i don't mind pushing it a little at the track.

the cartuning upgrade turbo (pt61) has a t4 flange...i hope chody gets back with the trim info. if it is a t04 76, then it's equivalent to a gt6176 (680+ bhp max). they advertise max boost (9 psi?) by 2600 rpm. ball bearings would make it sweeter. is a dual scroll turbine housing available?

are you saying that ported 3.8 heads flow the same as ported 3800 heads? that makes sense because they're both limited to a similar port size. i stated flow @ 0.500". the best series 2 flow 225+ @ 0.500", regardless of valve size, and not more past 0.550". do you have a link to some 3.8L flow numbers?

The Heads and Cam Bible. - FirebirdV6.com/CamaroV6.com Message Board

Ken

 

[Pronto]

Cartuning Performance 3800 Turbo Kit: 3800 Performance
:wink:

 

[xXch0dyXx]

I cant remember for sure what the exhaust trim was, but it wasnt 76, im pretty sure it was mildly small. I loved the turbo, had great spoolup and topend.

There are guys running mid 11's @ ~117 with 1.9 60's all day long with that turbo on the ****ty CT design. The design seems to be poor, but the kit does what it claims, and their has been no major issues except customer service.

Once i fabbed fbody upper/lower intake manifolds on with a custom FMIC, and turbo cam, i upped the boost to 19psi, and it would lay a patch at 55mph:wink:

I ended up putting a GT block in the car with 9.4cr, and at 15psi i was sliding sideways at the 1/8th and that was with good tires (not DR's though) here are some pics if you want a good idea of a better IC setup

 

[bison]

are you saying that ported 3.8 heads flow the same as ported 3800 heads? that makes sense because they're both limited to a similar port size. i stated flow @ 0.500". the best series 2 flow 225+ @ 0.500", regardless of valve size, and not more past 0.550". do you have a link to some 3.8L flow numbers?

The Heads and Cam Bible. - FirebirdV6.com/CamaroV6.com Message Board

Ken

The 3.8 rear drive and pre 3800 fwd heads flow nearly what you stated for a decent set of 3800 heads in the first post. Id think the 3800's would offer a little more flow since they are a better design and have more valve room. I dont have a specific link but there are a lot of threads about heads and flow in the other forums. Ive seen a lot of different numbers for heads over the years. Ive learned not to listen to peoples flow numbers too much since they can be a little inflated and can vary from one bench to another. 225cfm on the intake is really good for a production head and should support 800 fwhp with the right combo and maybe a little more if pushed to the limit.

 

[brian]

wow. that's a lot to chew on. thank you. i'm considering a new converter. for a daily driver, i don't mind pushing it a little at the track.

I have a 3200 stall Vigilante for the FWD cars if you are interseted. It is a direct swap for these cars. (no flexplate change)
To much stall for my mildly modded car.
Email me if you are interested.
The car it came off (before mine) went a 1.6x`s 60 ft with this!

Brian

 

[cstavro]

i like your pics chody! i like how you went with the f-body intake. i don't like the gs intake, and was thinking of using the gt intake...although it's nylon.

brian offered up a torque converter...which would let me move up to a 76 trim turbine:biggrin: apparently the gt's stall around 3000 anyway. (gs around 2600).

 

[xXch0dyXx]

you could always buy an l26 upper if you dont like the cracking nylon one that the l36 cars use :wink:

i preferred the fbody because of the longer runners, however it took aLOT more work to get the fbody setup on there. stattama can also build you a custom upper if you would like, i think they are around $400....

hth

 

[cstavro]

i work for a custom fab shop...no worries there.

i like the l36 because of the equal length runners, and they all see the upper intake. i wish it were available in aluminum. the l36 has better air distribution, which means easier tuning, and more power.

the l67 lower intake is stupid! the outside 4 runners are completely shrouded.

i think the l26 upper/lower will fill my needs perfectly. it's all aluminum...strong, and can be ported & polished thank you!

 

[JZ 97 SS 1500]

Here is a series II setup...

LS1TECH - Turbo kit competed finally!

LS1TECH - Pictures of one of my side projects... ST74 3.8L

They are shooting for 800+rwhp.

JZ

 

[xXch0dyXx]

u wanna make me some turbo headers for the 3800 like that?? i got something i could use them on

 

[jbunla]

i work for a custom fab shop...no worries there.

i like the l36 because of the equal length runners, and they all see the upper intake. i wish it were available in aluminum. the l36 has better air distribution, which means easier tuning, and more power.

the l67 lower intake is stupid! the outside 4 runners are completely shrouded.

i think the l26 upper/lower will fill my needs perfectly. it's all aluminum...strong, and can be ported & polished thank you!

This is not my setup but to my understanding the one who started it all. From what I gather the setup also uses pulse turbocharging!

I like the aluminum intake, just looks sexier :biggrin:
Nice setup Chody...

 

[cstavro]

This is not my setup but to my understanding the one who started it all. From what I gather the setup also uses pulse turbocharging!

I like the aluminum intake, just looks sexier :biggrin:
Nice setup Chody...

that does look sexy. kinda like the 6.1 hemi intake. any link to dyno charts, or setup?

when you say pulse tuning, i assume you mean dual scroll turbine housing. i believe cartuning uses the gt6176e...p trim, 0.68 a/r. dual scroll or bb will make it spool much quicker

bison: i found the dyno chart for a t4/t70 - on a heavily modded 3800 - and i really like the power curve. i assume the gt6776 would be similar.

for ram tuning, the headers should be 30" long, and the intake runners 12" long (6000 rpm). i want an intake upper with 1.2L volume for helmholtz tuning.

i don't really like the headers on the ls1 forum. i guess they're unequal length for fitment issues. fwd 3800 have the better header setup...everything can be equal length, and shorter up pipe.

i want a couple more gizmos...but i'll determine if they're possible, or practical.

thanks for everyones help! it's much appreciated.

 

[jbunla]

that does look sexy. kinda like the 6.1 hemi intake. any link to dyno charts, or setup?

when you say pulse tuning, i assume you mean dual scroll turbine housing. i believe cartuning uses the gt6176e...p trim, 0.68 a/r. dual scroll or bb will make it spool much quicker

iB::Topic::3800 Series III Turbo...

Here is all the info but it has not been updated for a while, it is a very good read so have some popcorn ready. Very impressive work indeed; I don't think anyone that I have seen so far in the 3800 community has used the theory of pulse turbocharging to its full potential. What he did goes beyond using twin scrolls.

for ram tuning, the headers should be 30" long, and the intake runners 12" long (6000 rpm). i want an intake upper with 1.2L volume for helmholtz tuning.

i don't really like the headers on the ls1 forum. i guess they're unequal length for fitment issues. fwd 3800 have the better header setup...everything can be equal length, and shorter up pipe.

i want a couple more gizmos...but i'll determine if they're possible, or practical.

thanks for everyones help! it's much appreciated.

For a turbocharged car I don't think helmoltz tuning is possible because the turbo posses a restriction well at least on the exhaust and also equal length headers provide power but to my knowledge works for a very short window. You can go to fullthottlev6.com in the forced induction section for more insight.

 

[cstavro]

thanks. i'll read the whole thing when i can...33 pages!

resonance tuning does work with turbos. and getting a benefit in a short range is better than no benefit at all.