Turbo V6 Camaro

[Jon Early]

Long time no post! I wish I had better news, but the car has been tucked away almost since the last time I posted.

Stock T5 + 400lb/ft to the tires = Chunky metal soup! See! Even the RWD 3800 guys were stuck with bad transmissions. I plan to upgrade though. The T5 is not a transmission worth building up if you ask me. With every action comes an opposite reaction, so when you start applying a lot of torque to these transmissions, the gears naturally want to spread apart from each other instead of spinning. Since third gear is the center most gear on the main and counter shafts, it always suffers the most. Eventually it spreads the shafts so far apart that the gears are only contacting at the tips of the teeth which causes them to chip and break off. There are upgrade kits available with stronger shafts, and gears with less of a helix in them, but buy the time the rebuild is complete, you've spent about as much as it would cost to buy a brand new trans mission with a much stronger torque rating.

There is very little information when it comes to this kind of conversion on the 3800, but I'm going to attempt to document my journey in the best way possible. I have a couple more measurements to take before I pull the trigger on a $2600 transmission, but I'm already pretty certain that this car will have a GM style TKO 600 in it pretty soon!

Despite the 4th generation F-bodies using a Ford T5 case, I plan to use the GM style trans. There are several reasons for this. First of all, the Ford TKO uses the "wide" pattern while the T5 uses the "narrow" pattern. This means that none of my bells will work without an adapter plate. The Ford Input shaft is slightly longer which is why I leaned that way for a little while, but the width of the MDL narrow to wide pattern adapter would make this a wash. The final nail in the coffin was that the GM pilot shaft would allow me to modify an off-the-shelf SBC extended pilot bearing instead of needing to make a bushing from scratch. The only trick left is finding a bell that has the metric engine bolt pattern, a non-tilted Muncie pattern, AND a driver side starter pocket...

TA-DA! Enter the V6 3rd-gen F-body Bell. It's not perfect, but its pretty dang close.
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As you can see, GM made this bell for a tilted set-up, but also cast in provisions for a vertical orientation. I have no idea why, but I'm really glad they did! I have to make some calls, but I do not believe that a TKO is supposed to be tilted. I'll just have to finish drilling and tapping the holes that GM already started. They also cast the fork provision in such a way that cutting it off and making a nice little window for HTOB hoses to come out will be super easy. Even if TKOs could be tilted to the driver side like stock, mounting it that way and coming up with a shifter could be a big pain. Mounting it vertically should just mean that I will need an offset shifter and stock mount which are widely available.

Wish me luck! I'm sure to run into some problems. So far, so good though! I'm getting so good at pulling this T5 that I actually remembered to pull the drain plug BEFORE I pulled the yolk! I might actually stay sort of clean.
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[dezldave961]

"good" problem to have, but sounds like a pain to chase. Manuals are definitely not meant for much abuse without spending coin.

The midwest RWD big builds I witnessed back in the early 2000's both used TH400 auto's, I believe (Tim King's red Firebird TT that went 8.9, and Chris Hoenle's RWD-coverted GTP that went 9.2-9.3). I think the 7-8-9 sec Aussies run Powerglide swaps.

The 8&9sec FWD cars all had the maximum 4T65e upgrade parts... that I luckily snagged before GM Racing dried up on their support for it.

 

[Jon Early]

No doubt. One of the guy's who helped build Tim King's car actually helped dyno tune mine. I felt like a big deal that day.

An automatic swap would certainly be the easier route. I strongly considered getting that nice billet adapter kit and a 4L80E, but a big reason I even bothered to snag this car was for the 5-speed. It's not the way to go fast, but I've learned to enjoy rowing gears in this thing! I'm going to keep it a stick if I can without much hassle.

 

[dezldave961]

Totally understand. For general driving fun, a manual is certainly an added feature. Convinced my cousin to get a Solstice GXP manual last week for a Sunday Funday cruiser, and he loves it. My builds are typically for drag/daily use, so sticking with the auto tends to happen.

Dyno Brian certainly has had success with the cars he's helped dial in. He's on the short list of people I'd trust, along with Matt and Tim at ZZP, to supplement myself dialing in the Regal, too.

 

[Jon Early]

I got bored...
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I get grumpy when I have nothing fun to work on. It's a lot worse when I HAVE stuff to work on, but they cost too much. I'm still saving up for that transmission, but I decided to get going on some of the more laborious tasks in the mean time. I soon regretted the placement of the turbo, so I'm going to cut the flange off and move it downward about an inch. The waste gate perch is going to be cut and moved down about two inches. Then it will be dumped to the ground. The best part is that all of this shuffling will make room for a new down pipe and full exhaust!

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I also finally shortened my IAT harness. I love how much cleaner this looks up on the intake manifold vs the intake pipe.
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[Jon Early]

The exhaust is coming along nicer than I anticipated.
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I also finally found a suitable replacement T5. As much as I want to upgrade, my Volvo just hit 181k miles and needs new control arms. It sure would be nice to have the Camaro ready to take me to work in case I run into problems. The GN could also use a little love as well, so I'm going to clean up the new trans with a couple seals and counter gear support plate and take it easy on the throttle. If nothing else, at least I'll be able to move the car around while I save up the big boy transmission money.

 

[dezldave961]

Pretty slick so far. I'm already wishing I had just thrown in the towel on the '04 Regal and went for my RWD build project, but I'll enjoy seeing yours come together and enjoy what I have for a couple more years.

Get it happy/reliable, and we can roll to some Race/Drag Week events (that's my ultimate goal, after watching the recent 2 from the YouTube sidelines).

 

[Jon Early]

Pretty slick so far. I'm already wishing I had just thrown in the towel on the '04 Regal and went for my RWD build project, but I'll enjoy seeing yours come together and enjoy what I have for a couple more years.

Get it happy/reliable, and we can roll to some Race/Drag Week events (that's my ultimate goal, after watching the recent 2 from the YouTube sidelines).

Uh oh! I haven't seen any updates in a while. Is the Regal giving you trouble?

I had a hard time even getting myself to go this route. If the car didn't have sentimental value, I probably wouldn't be here becasue I don't particularly like F-bodies. Beyond that there are still some trade-offs between W-bodies and V6 F-bodies. The F-body is nice having a 3800 in factory RWD format, but the transmission still needs to be swapped out to put down decent power. Plus, goofy unsupported F-body L36 is the only way to get them. Tossing a supercharger on it takes a lot of extra work and an intercooler doesn't fit under the cowl. Turbo is really the only way to go with these in my opinion, and that's a ton of extra work!

 

[Jon Early]

I guess I'll update while I'm here.

The sad (ish) news is that my impatience got the best of me. The good news is that the car will be back on the road a little sooner than I thought. For $150 I took a risk on a nasty 4th gen T5 I found on Facebook. It had clearly been stored outside with a hole in the top cover.
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Supposedly something fell and broke the vent tube off which allowed water to get inside. I wasn't going to argue over a super cheap core that went into all the gears after driving five hours. Luckily the insides look pretty darn good. Money well spent! The only concern is in the slightly rounded gear teeth on the reverse gear, but I'm going to take my chances.
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Since the tail housing needed to be removed to replace the top cover, I decided that I was going to take an extra step in hopes of keeping this thing alive a little longer. This stabilizer plate keeps the counter gear bearing race from egging the case and stripping gears. Frankensteining the trans together is going to be my project for tonight. I'll end up using my top cover, shifting mechanisms, and tail housing on the new trans since they're in slightly better conditions.
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Wish me luck! Once I get this back together, I'll only have easy odds and ends to go before I'm driving again.

 

[Jon Early]

This took much longer than it should have, but I think I'm in business.
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Old junk stamped retainer
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New beefy stabilizer! Setting the endplay with peelable shims was kind of tedious but satisfying.
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...and there we have it! Frankentrans! I don't feel great about going all this way just to reuse synchros in an untested unit, but I'm sure it'll be good enough for it's intended purpose. $500 rebuild kits for a hopeless transmission just didn't make sense to me. I hope I can slam this in this week.
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[dezldave961]

Regal's engine has been on pause while other things took my time this summer (work projects/trips, finally finishing my engineering undergrad, duck fostering, girlfriend things, etc.). Getting back on it, but might do parallel FWD & RWD 3800 projects... probably S10/Sonoma ZR2 (for axle upgrade starting point)... TBD.

I've seen a few folks have some 3800 success in F-bodies using either block as the base (NA or SC), but the tendency to just go LS-swap seems to take over for most anyone doing serious work. Using a turbo or centrifugal SC seems like a winner on the 3800's there, since they're stuffed so far under the dash as you mentioned, although I've seen gutted wiper trays to make it happen with various roots blower versions (US and AUS M90's, etc.).

Hope that trans works for you. I'm probably going to try beefing up a 4L60e when I get an Fbody donor drivetrain, now that there's some solid upgrades for it. I have no idea what's on the market for the 5spd's. I've only dealt with our NASCAR modified's wild ones years back, and usually just pulls/installs, since they had very hardened guts.

 

[Jon Early]

Regal's engine has been on pause while other things took my time this summer (work projects/trips, finally finishing my engineering undergrad, duck fostering, girlfriend things, etc.). Getting back on it, but might do parallel FWD & RWD 3800 projects... probably S10/Sonoma ZR2 (for axle upgrade starting point)... TBD.

I've seen a few folks have some 3800 success in F-bodies using either block as the base (NA or SC), but the tendency to just go LS-swap seems to take over for most anyone doing serious work. Using a turbo or centrifugal SC seems like a winner on the 3800's there, since they're stuffed so far under the dash as you mentioned, although I've seen gutted wiper trays to make it happen with various roots blower versions (US and AUS M90's, etc.).

Hope that trans works for you. I'm probably going to try beefing up a 4L60e when I get an Fbody donor drivetrain, now that there's some solid upgrades for it. I have no idea what's on the market for the 5spd's. I've only dealt with our NASCAR modified's wild ones years back, and usually just pulls/installs, since they had very hardened guts.

Man, I get that. It's hard to justify any fun car parts when I have a wedding coming up in a little over a year. It's life though. Good for you on sticking with school. An engineering degree is a pretty good investment even in today's iffy job market.

Ditching the 3800 altogether for an LS in an F-body is certainly not a bad move, but I'm just not wired that way. I am having tons of fun with my L36 at 333hp despite going through a lot more work to get there. I'm starting to approach the crossroads though. Do I take this engine to the next level? I could probably put L67 head gaskets, ARP studs, an ST5 cam, and springs in it to push this thing up to the 500hp ish range, but I'm scared that I'll be kissing the point of rod failure. I'd hate to send junk through or saw through a brand new cam when I have an L67 core at a buddies shop... Then again the rods usually seem to just bend or window the block while leaving the valvetrain alone. Idk. I guess we'll see what logistics make sense when I get to that point. If I drop the k-member, I'm probably swapping it out for a Spohn tubular k-member and control arms as well. Slippery slope!

Who knows what's going to happen between now and then anyway. I may end up destroying both the T5 and the 10 bolt before I do anything to the engine. I'm still saving up very slowly for that TKO swap, but even that is big undertaking for a car only making 400lb/ft. Cars are fun. It's good to have cheap additional interests to keep a healthy life balance.

 

[Jon Early]

Transmission is in the car! I just have to button up all the little stuff now. The turbo drain fitting and some more exhaust materials showed up, and the GN went to storage. It's time to get some quick work done.

I don't have a welding table, but I get by. I already cut up the the downpipe because I wasn't liking the last bend.
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Much better. I'll probably brace this to the back of the alternator.
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No more clearance issues.
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I'm going to have to move my catch can service port, but that's a small sacrifice. It's all coming together!
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[Jon Early]

I'm going to call this a good stopping place for the exhaust. I know the whole point was to run the pipe to the rear and quiet things down, but I'm more concerned about making sure my transmission works before the end of the season. If not, I'll have all winter to fix it. If so, I won't have to worry about it anymore.
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Steel is heavy. I had to make a brace to take at least a little bit of weight off the turbo.
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The new sensor placement is far more ideal. The readings should be good and the sensor should last a very long time.
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Once I figure out the turbo oil drain, I'll just need to do all the painting, wrapping, and final assembly.

 

[dezldave961]

That should work for now. My cutout exits in a similar spot/angle, and it's not too bad to drive around (granted, my crossover collection is pretty centered, so each bank's pulses are pretty smoothed out).

 

[Jon Early]

That should work for now. My cutout exits in a similar spot/angle, and it's not too bad to drive around (granted, my crossover collection is pretty centered, so each bank's pulses are pretty smoothed out).

I'm sure it'll be fine too. I was just excited to go back to a super quiet ride. I'm kicking myself for scrapping the original exhaust now. I'll eventually start with the Hawks mild steel 4" kit and just connect the dots. If the longer pipe turns out to be quiet enough for me with little or no drone I'll leave it alone. Otherwise, I'll put a really nice muffler in it with a cutout.

I hate that that almost all of the 4th gen Camaro cat-backs are dual outlets with the big gaudy polished tips. I just want a stainless single outlet with a hidden turn-down, but I guess I'm not the typical F-body consumer.

 

[Jon Early]

I screwed up and painted the new exhaust pieces with engine paint. I find it easier to just burn it off rather than stripping it, so back together without wrap it goes.

I did properly paint and rewrap the frayed end of the crossover though.
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It's not my best work, but better than it was.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I really like copper gaskets spray and anti-seize. My exhaust parts come apart and back together so much easier now.
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I'm pretty happy with the looks and serviceability, so I guess my new exhaust routing is an overall win.
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I rewired one of the knock sensors (not that I'm using it), filled the trans with fluid, and came up with a plan for the turbo drain, so I might be test driving this weekend!

 

[Jon Early]

The oil drain angle is a very acute decline, but I'm hopeful that it will work just fine.

 

[Jon Early]

I'm behind on updates, but I'll try to get this up to speed. I drove it like this for about four days.
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Zoomy!
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...but I started to hate it pretty quickly. My drive to work is dark and all mundane highway driving. Yeah, boost is fun, but I'm not in it all the time because I'm a wimp. The issues lie in the cabin. The HVAC control lights were burnt out, as well as most of my stereo lights. Turning on my the map lights to barely see the defrost setting is kinda dangerous and very annoying. Plus, the blown out speakers made hearing radio impossible over the obnoxious mooing of the 3800. I said that I was just going to drive this car until the end of the year, but I lied.
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Bulbs replaced!
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I had this old Pioneer head unit from my sister's car. My buddy bought the car but wanted bluetooth, so he bought the chaepest bluetooth unit he could find and gave the nice Pioneer back to me. Score!
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Soldered up adapter harness. I only forgot heat shrink once. lol
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This would certainly cause a speaker rattle!
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[Jon Early]

These Rockford Fosgates fit like a glove! I hate cutting stuff up for stereos, so this was very satisfying.
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I also decided to go the hard route with the dash adapter. I am super picky with these. I hate when the sterio does not sit flush, flops around, or has useless cubbies to fill up space. Metra 99-3300 is the answer, but it is not exactly for the amateur installer. I had to cut the keyway for the stock radio and get creative with the Pioneers framework, but it turned out very nice in my opinion. It sits flush and rock solid. View attachment

Now it took me a few days for some of these parts to arrive in the mail, so you can bet I was using that time wisely. Remember all the clutch issues I've complained about in the past? No more. I've had this Tick adjustable clutch master cylinder for months, and for some reason never installed it.

Wimpy!
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Hefty!
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Dang, was that was a pain to install!
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I'm still trying to figure out how to get this thing bled completely and where to set my pedal, but the difference is already night and day. I've really been missing out on proper engagement/disengagement and smooth shifts. It feels like a whole new car.