Used Busch Motors?

[VxTurboxV]

I've heard a lot of jazz about these expired/used bush race buick engines. I head they are the equivalent of a stage II engine and you can pick up a used long block for under 5k. Anyone out there use or know where to purchase one of these busch buicks? And if I could find one would I even want one. I'm sure they've had a "hard" previous life to say the least. Just exploring my horizons tell me what ya'll think.

Thanks
Adam

 

[KendallF]

What you're hearing referred to as a "Busch" motor is a Stage 2 Buick V6. The Busch series ran V6s for a while and various teams ran Buicks as well as Chevy V6s and others.

The motor setup will vary according to who built it but typically they're late casting on-center blocks, forged cranks, 6.500" billet rods, S2 aluminum heads, single 4 bbl intakes w/dry sump and S2 front cover.

Basically, for a turbo motor you'd be keeping the block, rods, and crank, and chucking most of the rest. The Busch motors were allowed to run high compression so often the heads are heavily milled to get the chamber volume down, which makes them hard to use with a turbo setup and sane compression.

 

[VxTurboxV]

Thanks for the info Kendall

Originally posted by KendallF

Basically, for a turbo motor you'd be keeping the block, rods, and crank, and chucking most of the rest. The Busch motors were allowed to run high compression so often the heads are heavily milled to get the chamber volume down, which makes them hard to use with a turbo setup and sane compression.

I'm more of a all go and no show kinda guy. So supose I had about 6k to play with. How would my $ be best spent? Would you go for the busch motor or keep the 3.8 girdle it and buy a good set of heads? Or maybe something else? I'm really looking for a street car with some excessive top end. (My stock 3.8 is in a 2700lb rx-7 soon to be purchased) I would like to have around the 550-600 to the wheels. How would any of U gurus go about this? I'm not looking to win any shows here but I'd like the motor to last at least 30k.

Thanks
Adam

 

[NJTurbo]

Re: Thanks for the info Kendall

Originally posted by VxTurboxV
I'm more of a all go and no show kinda guy. So supose I had about 6k to play with. How would my $ be best spent? Would you go for the busch motor or keep the 3.8 girdle it and buy a good set of heads? Or maybe something else? I'm really looking for a street car with some excessive top end. (My stock 3.8 is in a 2700lb rx-7 soon to be purchased) I would like to have around the 550-600 to the wheels. How would any of U gurus go about this? I'm not looking to win any shows here but I'd like the motor to last at least 30k.

Thanks
Adam

Work the stock block.
If you have $6000.00 that will get you a crank, pistons, heads and rods for a stage block. Then the big money starts, Trans, Fuel System, Oil Pan, Machine work, Dfi or Fast ETC. It is a endless money pit

 

[Bob Mustic]

VX

Your project sounds a little like mine. I put a Busch type Stage II in a kit Cobra. I didn't use a Turbo as with the Stage motor it would way overpower the car. I was looking for 450+ horsepower and got 473 on the dyno. Cobra weighs 2350 and runs 10.8's so far. And "shocks" the Ford guys at the Cobra meets.

We lowered the compression from 14:1 to 11.5:1 for the street and used a fairly mild circle track cam (thanks to Ron Tarabori and Reed Cam) so it would have some bottom end. I was shocked how well the cam pulls from 2,000 to 8,000 RPM, not a flat spot anywhere.

I think the RX idea is pretty neat. You could call John Spina at Casper's as he's put a 3.8 Turbo into a Cobra that weighs around what the RX would weigh. Also the Stage II block is a LOT heavier than the 3.8's. Are you planning on using a 200R4 for a trans or stick? I used a Tremec 5 speed behind the Stage II and it seems to work fine.

From my experience you'll be better off with the 3.8 also as you want to get 30,000 miles out of the motor. The Stage motor, IMO, is much stronger but has to have its Solid rollers replaced fairly often (4,000) miles or so and it really should be run with a dry sump (again IMO).

Regards,

Bob

 

[stage274]

why does the solid rollers have to be replaced every 4000 miles.

 

[Bob Mustic]

Stage 274

The reason the lifters have to be replaced/rebuilt is the high spring pressure and RPM.

From what I've been told by several knowledgeable people including Isky. Is the Solid Rollers get really beat up both on the street and racing. The Engine guy I use told me that they would change them after every Race on the Nascar type motors. Isky told me that 4,000 miles would be pushing as far as they were concerned. They also told me that their new "Red Zone" lifters have an internal oiling system and bigger rollers so they would last twice as long 8,000 miles before a rebuild would be needed.

The Cobra also runs a rev kit which everyone agreed would help the lifters last a little longer.

Needless to say the Cobra's 4 barrel intake is a snap to remove and so the lifter aren't hard to change. I'd suggest that doing the same job on a GN would not be nearly as easy. IMO.

Which is one reason I'm selling my GN and keeping the Cobra. Two high performance "Buicks" is one more than enough, for me anyway.

Bob

 

[VxTurboxV]

Re: Stage 274

Originally posted by Bob Mustic
The reason the lifters have to be replaced/rebuilt is the high spring pressure and RPM.

From what I've been told by several knowledgeable people including Isky. Is the Solid Rollers get really beat up both on the street and racing. The Engine guy I use told me that they would change them after every Race on the Nascar type motors. Isky told me that 4,000 miles would be pushing as far as they were concerned. They also told me that their new "Red Zone" lifters have an internal oiling system and bigger rollers so they would last twice as long 8,000 miles before a rebuild would be needed.

Bob

Couldn't you just install a roller cam and rockers use a lower pressure spring and not rev the car quite as high.....? I mean if a stock engine with no boost puts over 400 to the wheels I think I could sacrifice a few rpm for longevity. Just turn up the boost a bit.

Just a thought.

 

[Bob Mustic]

VxTurboxV

The problem is the Cobra has a normally aspirated Stage II. It would be really nice to be able to simply crank up the boost.

So the only way that this motor will make any "real" horsepower is to rev it. In fact peak HP was at 7600 RPM as I remember. With Stainless valves you need the spring pressure to make the RPM limit just over 8,000.

If I had kept the Titanium valves it wouldn't need the spring pressure that high but Titanium valves won't "live" on the street.

Everyone I've talked to that has lots of Stage II experience says the same thing about the lifters. Don't run them too long on the street.

Bob

 

[Mac in SD]

The issue with the solid rollers is the lash: the constant pounding at any rpm beats up on the needle bearings in the roller. The reason hydraulic rollers live in OEM and aftermarket applications is that there is zero lash.

 

[Bob Mustic]

Mac

You may be right about the lash but here is a question for you. Since I run a Rev Kit there is no lash on the roller. Isky told me that its an oiling problem and a detonation problem. The very tiny rollers don't get a lot of oil especially at idle. The stage II don't even have drains in the lifter gallery that drops oil on them. Also, like myself, most people run oil scrapers on the oil pan to get rid of windage oil. Also if the engine detonates (according to the tech an Isky) apparently (not sure how) the rollers get tiny "dents" in them when that happens the roller fails shortly.

The guy that did my engine told me when I walked in the door and he saw a box of Isky lifters "Send them to Isky for a rebuild" without even looking at them. He also said that Isky lifters are the best ones for a stage motor. Maybe maybe not but when the ISKY tech agreed that the lifter wouldn't live real long on the street I believed him.

In any case for me its very easy to change them once every 18 months or so.

Bob

 

[stage274]

I am doing a stage 2 build up, and wondering if a solid non roller will be ok on the street, I want to drive to the track , and rev it to 6500 and drive home, also do you ajust your rockers every so often.

 

[Bob Mustic]

Stage274

My motor uses Jesel rocker arms and after the dyno runs we checked the valve adjustment and they were fine. So I ran the motor on the street for about 1,000 miles and raced it making maybe 20 runs. Checked the rockers again and they were dead on. So I'm going to leave them alone until I pull the lifters this year.

As far as running hydraulics on Stage II heads I can't answer on that I would think there are plenty of folks who could though. One problem you might have is are your lifter bores drilled for pressure oiling? We had to drill mine out as it had bronze bushings but were "dry".

As I said before, the Stage II heads run great on the street though.

Makes a lot of Big block Ford guys nuts though...

Bob

 

[Mac in SD]

Bob, you may have something there on the drainage and windage issues. My lifter bores originally had really small oiling holes, which I enlarged to .125. Time will tell.

Stage274, I know that Neal Steward is running solid flat tappets on the street with GN1 heads. He's doing just fine. I don't know who's got the flat tappet cams for S2 heads, though.

 

[Ron Tarabori]

The problem with a flat tappet cam in a stage II is there are no cores available. Buick made a few cast cores in the beginning but they are long gone. If you want to run flat tappets with stage heads you have to start with a billet roller, have it ground and then stellite coated and run chilled iron lifters. You also need to part with about 7 to 800 bucks.

 

[Mac in SD]

Re: Mac

Originally posted by Bob Mustic
You may be right about the lash but here is a question for you. Since I run a Rev Kit there is no lash on the roller. ..
Bob

Bob , I was thinking a little more...STAND BACK!!! ...

Anyway, while it's true that there's no lash between the roller lifter and the lobe, there IS lash in the valve train, and you're still getting "impact" somewhere between the pushrod cup on the lifter and the cup on the rocker. That impact still gets transferred to the needle bearings in the roller to some extent, at least.

 

[stage274]

can you run a hydralic roller that can handle at least 6800 rpm with out pumping up and hanging the valves open, Im looking for realiability.

 

[Bob Mustic]

Mac

You may well be correct on the issue of "lash is lash". It may well be that we are all chasing things that don't exist. ie I've read somewhere that the problem really has to do with a lack of lubrication at idle but that the biggest "killer" of the roller is valve float and detonation. Now as far as the lubrication goes I find it hard to believe that with the kind of oil pressure my Dry sump pump puts out that oil is roaring out of the cam bearings and giving the rollers a good bath even at idle. Idle oil pressure is 55psi HOT with 10/30 synthetic.

It may well be everyone is paranoid about the whole issue. But I think I'm going to change my lifters anyway and while I'm at it I'm going to go to the Red Zones as they must be better (hopefully).

Good discussion though.... Oh, and HI Ron...

Bob

 

[lazaris]

can you run a hydralic roller that can handle at least 6800 rpm with out pumping up and hanging the valves open, Im looking for realiability.

Comp Cams came out with a new hyd roller lifter that supposedly can run up to 7000 rpm. It changes the position of the internal piston. Its under the Pro Magnum series 885.

 

[TGrant]

I spoke w/Joe Schubeck earlier today -- he's about to start shipping (mid February) a "breakthrough" in roller lifter design...no needle bearings/link bars at all, weighs 45gms TOTAL. He says it will obsolete their radius lifters (which also required a special cam) entirely.

The composite roller floats on an oil film like a rod bearing, and is supposed to be pretty much bulletproof. Will work with existing roller grinds. Apparently the product was covered in HotRodMag or something recently.

I'll have more tech info from him within a week--I'm seriously considering a set, as I've been nervous about using solid rollers for any length of time.

TIM