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Valvetrain geometry

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jpwalt1987

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Joined
Nov 9, 2003
Messages
1,885
I'm working on a motor for a local guy and its down to measuring pushrod length. Here are the parts we have: Champion CNC irons with PAC 1201 springs, 206/210 roller cam, Cometic head gaskets, and stock rocker arms that will receive HD shafts and braces. The pushrod length I came up with was 7.950 after careful measuring and adding .050 preload. However, in looking at the way the rocker arm sits on the valve tip, it looks like the rocker arm is too far to the edge. These valves are definitely taller than a stock untouched set of heads I have that I measured. What do you guys think from looking at the picture?

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Here it is.

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I used stock rockers on the wife's car, which is a stroker that has the Champion Aluminum heads on it. I also did a very careful measurement with my checking tool and ordered pushrods to give between .040 and .050" of preload. This turned out to be a screamer, but it is very new, so my plan is to pull the VCs off and check to see how things are looking in there. Also, I used the TA Performance heavy duty shafts and RJCs rocker supports. Again, this is a new build with not a lot of miles on it. Perhaps others with a similar set up will chime in here as to longevity. Honestly, I will most likely change out the stockers for the rollers that I have on my spare motor...
 
Also, according to Champion's website, the installed height is 1.75", which is memory serves, is within .005" of what the stockers were... (1.700")
 
I am talking about the total valve height not spring installed height.

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you should put marking compound on it and see what the contact looks like through the valve lift.
 
you should put marking compound on it and see what the contact looks like through the valve lift.
Thats next on the list to check. I just need to keep the lifter from bleeding down.

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If you have a spare old lifter, take it apart and put a spacer in it short enough to leave the correct preload. Now you have a lifter that will not bleed down. Works good for checking piston to valve clearance too.
 
roller lifters dont come apart easy,
they make lightweight checker springs for figuring out the geometry and clearance stuff
 
I saw some springs at the local Ace Hardware store that will work as checking springs.

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Actuate the rocker through it's lift cycle. With a shoe type stock rocker, you'll notice the contact point 'rolls' across the tip to the outside of the stem. *pet peeve warning ahead:*.... IGNORE ALL THAT CRAP ABOUT "make sure the contact patch is centered on the stem", IT IS 100% USELESS, BS, AND WILL MOST LIKELY CAUSE YOU TO HAVE INCORRECT GEOMETRY!

The correct way to 'set' valvetrain geometry is to put the valve at 1/2 of it's intended lift then set the rocker height so that's the valve stem centerline is square with an imaginary centerline through the shaft and contact point (on roller rockers, it's the shaft center to the roller center. 1/2 the roller counts as valve stem).
rocker_geometry.jpg

053.JPG


This is what it looks like when the shaft location is too low....
SDC10037a.jpg


When the shaft height is right relative to the valve tip, the pushrod should also be square with an imaginary line from the shaft to the centerline of the pivot ball.... Now for the bad part.... it won't be. Jim Miller holds the patent on correctly built rockers and he doesn't make them for our Buicks. (and from talking to him, they never will be)

Design-Geometry.jpg
"A" is what you shoot for, not "B"

One way to figure out the correct shaft height is to see how far the pushrods are out of square, then average the two. (on my engine, I lowered the shaft height 050"). That will get close with the parts at hand. Once the rocker height is correctly located relative to tip height, THEN you measure pushrod length. (then check everything for square, try and figure out what you did wrong, then do it again. LOL. Doing this right is defiantly a 'feel thing')

Also, DO NOT use standard shaft shims if you need to raise it. They will decrease the ID of the shaft saddle and lead to split pedestals on the head. Not good.

With a shoe type stock rocker, look how the shoe is acting on the tip, if there's any binding, what type of crap it'll take to get 'right', check for binding, then make a decision.

By using stock rockers, the ratio will actually go up as the rocker goes through it's rotation. What you don't want with big lift cams if to have the rocker tip 'wiping' across the tip instead of pushing down on it.

At the end of it all, if you can't make it 'perfect', you can still get a hellova lot closer than just bolting parts together.


Moral of the story, there's a lot more to setting up geometry than measuring pushrods.
 
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Wow, I was thinking that I knew a little bit about this. After reading Earls post , I have decided I don't know shit. Great write up Earl

LOL. Well now you know a little more!! LOL


Actually it's pretty common. When it comes to valvetrains and setting them up, it seems like common sense when it comes to rocker ratios, and how the interact from the pushrod to the valvestem. Once you get down and dirty it's a pain.. Until you can absorb every bit of it and fully understand how all the parts work together, it's just plain screwy. Once you grasp how all the parts work together, then it's a 'duh' moment.


Turns out when converting linear motion into radial motion and back into linear motion it's more than just distance from fulcrum to pivots :D
 
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Where can you get the correct shims to raise the shafts and not crack the rocker pedestals? Earl, your post has made me rethink this whole setup. Now I have to stay up in the morning after work and check this like you are saying. Damn you!!! ;-)

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Sorry about that. :D

If it makes you feel any better I went though almost the same thing when I built my last engine...

http://www.turbobuicks.com/forums/buick-v6-turbo-tech/88129-day-life-earl.html

As far as I know the correct shims aren't made. I thought about tooling up and making some that won't break pedestals back when I was playing with this stuff last time... but I figured I'd die with them since most people don't move the shafts around.
 
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