Valvetrain geometry

[RmvBfrFlght]

After thinking about all this for a bit and not getting any solid answers on why or what to do to correct this situation I have come up with a solution. I just need to know if I can get away with it. I am think of cutting .050- .060 off of the tip of the valve stem.

I was going to suggest this earlier. I didn't as the tips of the valve stems are hardened. And I don't know how far down the stem that continues. Again, I don't know for sure, but it may be that cutting that much off will remove the hardened tip which will then cause the top of the stem to mushroom.

To find out I would contact Ferrea.

RemoveBeforeFlight

 

[pacecarta]

t

 

[jpwalt1987]

Just talked to Tom again.i sent him some pictures of what I'm seeing and where I am measuring so he can compare it to other heads in the shop. He didnt like the idea of cutting the valves down more than about .010-.015. Hopefully he will get back to me soon.

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[jpwalt1987]

No other ideas? Anyone?

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[1952ray]

My thinking is they are case hard, which means .012-.015 deep. If you grind off more then that, that's trouble.

 

[earlbrown]

Did he say why he didn't like the idea of tipping them more to 10 to 15 thou?

I still can't seem to wrap my mind around why he can't tell you the difference between HIS heads and the stockers.

 

[jpwalt1987]

He didnt say why not to cut them more than .010-.015. I would agree with 1952ray rhat the valves are probably case hardened at the tip. He wants me to mock them up with the roller rockers to see how that goes but the geometry is going to be crap. Bottom line is the seats are too high in the head. But why? Are everyone elses too high also and they just didn't check anything? I'm getting pissed that he can't give me an answer. This car has been at my house way too long and this is holding me up.

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[Jay J]

Is there a shorter valve available that would not have to be shortened? Or:
maybe Tom could swap another set of heads for what you have now...

 

[earlbrown]

That's what gets me. If I designed a head and moved the valve location up and you asked me about it... I'd know that I moved them up....


If I made a new set of heads and left the valves in the same place and you asked me about it... I'd tell you they should be in the same place.


Those tips shouldn't be hardened. If they were you'd know it as soon as the grinding wheel hit the tip.

 

[jpwalt1987]

Earl, thats exactly what I thought. He said everything is supposed to bolt right up as far as stock rockers go. The valves are Ferrea stainless steel. Not sure about a shorter valve. I'm sure there is one available. I think I will call him tomorrow to see what measurements he has for the tip of the valve to the rocker pedestal.

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[earlbrown]

It stands to reason that if you've got Ferreas and a stock rocker height, then the tips would be in the same place.

Heres what my Ferreas looked like with stock rockers on stock castings...
http://www.turbobuicks.com/forums/buick-v6-turbo-tech/88129-day-life-earl.html

 

[jpwalt1987]

It stands to reason that if you've got Ferreas and a stock rocker height, then the tips would be in the same place.

Heres what my Ferreas looked like with stock rockers on stock castings...
http://www.turbobuicks.com/forums/buick-v6-turbo-tech/88129-day-life-earl.html

I wish my stock rockers looked like the first picture in your link.

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[jpwalt1987]

Here is a close up of the way the rocker sits on the valve tip. Its the clearest shot I have.

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[earlbrown]

See, that's what I don't get. Those pics of how the rocker sat were before I lowered the pedestals .045". Since I was installing a 215/220 roller, I knew I was going to get more 'downward arc' so I lowered the rocker shaft to bisect the rotation and get closer to mid-lift geometry.

If your pedestals are the same height as stock and your valves are the same height as stock, your heads (with Ferrea valves) should looks just like my heads (with Ferrea valves).

Granted when I put my O/S intakes in, I took the bare minimum off the seats to get the most compression I could get. When I built the heads, I didn't have the cam yet so I didn't want to mess with the tip height until I could mock it up. Those pics on post #1 are full length untouched valves. In fact, I almost looked at putting caps on them to make them taller, but I chose to mill the pedestals instead.

I just find it odd we both started with the same architecture but have drastically different outcomes.

 

[jpwalt1987]

Talked to Ferrea. He said I could cut about .020 off of the tip. Any more than that and "I'm on my own"
Still trying to get a hold of Champion

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[jpwalt1987]

A little update........

After realizing there was nothing I could do with these heads to make them work properly I spent $90 and shipped them back to Tom@ Champion. He received them last Wednesday. The owner of the heads actually got through to him on the phone on Thursday. He had not opened the boxes. Tom told the purchaser of the heads( my customer) that he couldnt understand why they dont linenup and that he has a set there that is fine. I have tried to call Tom about 20 times between today and last Wednesday. No answer. He told my customer "I'll call you back before the end of the day". no call. So as of right now we have no heads and no money and no answer on what Tom plans to do to correct the situation. This is a prime example of how not to run a business.

So now the big question is, where can I get a set of ported iron heads that flow what the champion heads do?

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[oldguynewtoy]

Weber...

 

[psycho6cyl]

I thought ta were making iron heads at onetime. All.I.see on site are the aluminums. I wouldnt jump to getting new heads..champion.is not going to be offering any refunds. If you get another setyour customwr will be 2400 in the hole.just on heads. Tom.said he was goingto refund me $ months ago

 

[earlbrown]

With your attention to detail, I'd get a set of junkyard 8445s and a set of O/S Ferrea SS valves. Polish the combustion chambers,smooth out any casting bumps and core lines, put seats on the ex guides, cut the new seats, open the bowls with a bowl cutter, skim the decks, then pocket the rest of the money.

Then they'll flow well and you'll know every square inch of those heads are right.

 

[jpwalt1987]

Another update!!

After blowing up Champions phone and fax machine my customer finally got ahold of Tom. He saw what I was talking about with geometry issue but didnt understand why or how it happened. My customer got across to Tom how frustrated he was with the lack of communication and phone calls never returned and the fact that we were lining up another set of heads from somone else. My customer was in the process of calling his credit card company to make a claim when Tom called. The replacement heads showed up today!! I checked them the same way I had the others. Everything checked out great as far as valve height vs. rocker pedestal. The valve tip height was .580 above the base of the rocker pedestal on these heads. On the heads that we sent back it was about .660. A stock set of heads measured about .575 from valve tip to pedestal base.
I set up the rockers shafts and arms and it looks alot better than before. It looks like after 3 months of aggravation Tom came through. I hate to talk bad about people but he needs to reevaluate how he runs that business. I'm not sure if I will be a repeat customer.



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