VIN restoration question

[turbo87regal]

Anyone know if its illegal to take the body from a Regal to restore a rusted T-type and swap the VIN from the turbo car to the new body. Seems like body shops do the same kind of thing when they change frames or take half a body to fix a wrecked car. I dont really see a problem because I own both cars but I figured I would ask to see if anyone has experience with this issue before I get myself in some trouble.
It just seems like the smarter thing to do rather than cutting the perfectly good body into a million pieces to get the metal to fix all the rust on the other

 

[turbojimmy]

Anyone know if its illegal to take the body from a Regal to restore a rusted T-type and swap the VIN from the turbo car to the new body.

Yes. It's a federal crime. People do it all the time, but it is illegal.

Jim

 

[turbofish38]

Yes. It's a federal crime. People do it all the time, but it is illegal.

Jim

Have you got that in writing?

As stated he can prove ownership of both VINs. I've looked all over the place and I didn't see where it was illegal to swap tags as long as its the same model of vehicle. Now some smarta$$ lawyer could probally say when the time comes to sell those cars he might be breaking some fraud laws by deception but I dont see it happening. Yes body shops do it all the time because it isn't illegal to do so. When you start swapping tags from stolen property than you are breaking the law. Personally I dont see a problem. The tub is an expendable part much like a bumper,taillamp or even the engine block. You wont hear anybody crying because their TR doesn't have the original engine. As long as its a 109 block than it's good. I wouldn't have a problem swapping tags. I also have a couple of project cars that I plan on swapping tags on. I doubt anybody is going to feel they got ripped off if I plan to sell those cars. I've said it a bizillion times. Who here has the experience to tell that a tub has been swapped let alone the VIN tag?

 

[turbojimmy]

Have you got that in writing?

Yes. It's a federal crime per a 1984 statue called the Motor Vehicle Theft Law Enforcement Act. To your point, you'd have to be pretty good to know that a VIN has been swapped. If you actually own, or could prove that you have owned both cars you probably wouldn't get in trouble. But...the statue is clear: tags cannot be removed

...Title 18 provides criminal penalties for altering or removing motor vehicle identification numbers (18 U.S.C. § 511); seizure and forfeiture of vehicles or components with falsified or removed identification numbers (18 U.S.C. § 512);....

It's one of those things that's not likely to come back to haunt you, like removing your catalytic converter, but it is technically against the law.

Jim

 

[turbo87regal]

If you actually own, or could prove that you have owned both cars you probably wouldn't get in trouble. But...the statue is clear: tags cannot be removed

If thats true I guess you can't ever change the drivers door or trunk lid because they both have the VIN # on them. Its a good thing those parts never rust on these cars

I do own both cars one is a rusty 86 t-type and the other is a 86 N/A Regal and I do have both titles in my name showing that I own them.

"altering or removing motor vehicle identification numbers" to me would mean you can not have no VIN plate or grind off the number on the trans, engine or frame

 

[turbojimmy]

If thats true I guess you can't ever change the drivers door or trunk lid because they both have the VIN # on them. Its a good thing those parts never rust on these cars

You asked the question, don't get pissy if you don't like the answer. Technically it's illegal to remove the tag. Nevermind that you'll replace it with another. The act of removing it is illegal per federal statutes. The laws also vary from state to state.

I personally don't think you have anything to worry about, but the question was whether it was legal or not.

Jim

 

[turbo87regal]

You asked the question, don't get pissy if you don't like the answer.

Chill out!

I'm just throwing out an obvious comparison

Any one else with body shop, insurance or legal experience have some insight on this situation

 

[turbojimmy]

Chill out!

I'm just throwing out an obvious comparison

Any one else with body shop, insurance or legal experience have some insight on this situation

Sorry. I had a crappy day and your little rolleyes bugged me.

I don't have any real experience, other than having restored and titled reconstructed totals. I've never swapped a VIN though.

Good luck with your project.

Jim

 

[54Rich]

Chill out!

I'm just throwing out an obvious comparison

Any one else with body shop, insurance or legal experience have some insight on this situation

It's talked about all the time on some of the older car boards. Try searching on V8Buick.com. The way I understand it is you can not remove the VIN from the car, however, nothing says to what extent you it can replace the sheetmetal surrounding it.

I have a 69 GS 400 4 Speed one of 785 cars, very rare especially if you look at how it was optioned, of course it lived in Wisconsin all it life, the body just can not be saved. So it's getting a new body. I've heard it on Barrett Jackson, they call it a "Rebody". The way I look at it, I'm saving a piece of history, everything is documented to the best of my ability and I'm not trying to pull the wool. It's my only chance to have such a rare car.

The laws were ment to address car thiefs, however, a law is a law. You'll get a split 50-50 on the subject.

Rich

 

[turbofish38]

Dude. Dont just do a copy&paste to suit your answer. There's more to the title 18 part of the law. Here's what I found
US CODE: Title 18,511. Altering or removing motor vehicle identification numbers

I'm sure you can navigate that site from this page. Read it very closely. Just as I stated it's with in the law to swap tags. You just cant do it with stolen property or with the intent to defraud.

 

[turbojimmy]

Dude. Dont just do a copy&paste to suit your answer. There's more to the title 18 part of the law. Here's what I found
US CODE: Title 18,511. Altering or removing motor vehicle identification numbers

I'm sure you can navigate that site from this page. Read it very closely. Just as I stated it's with in the law to swap tags. You just cant do it with stolen property or with the intent to defraud.

I didn't cut-n-paste to suit my answer. I googled the terms and got what I got. I didn't come up with the whole statute, just some excerpts from some other car related sites. I cut-n-pasted verbatim from a summary - I apologize if it was taken out of context.

Thanks for the accusation though. I appreciate it.

Jim

 

[darkred87T]

Here is the EXEPTION to the statute:

2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection are—
(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to such vehicle or part;
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by—
(i) the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.

 

[turbojimmy]

Here is the EXEPTION to the statute:

2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection are—
(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to such vehicle or part;
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by—
(i) the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.

Thanks for pointing that out.

To turbofish38's point, the portion I posted was misleading. It wasn't deliberate, but it was all I came up with.

It would seem that there are exceptions for legitmate removals of VIN tags. That's good. I'd still check the state laws, too.

Philosophically I have a problem with swapping VIN tags, but it does seem to be within the law - at least at the federal level.

Jim

 

[darkred87T]

Just tryin' to help.

 

[turbo87regal]

Thanks for the help guys.

I have been looking for the statutes you guys found but I could not find the one you posted and all the others had me so confused that I figured I should just ask the question.

I also had a friend of mine check with some local auto theft ivestigators he knows and they said its technicaly not illegal as long as nothing is stolen and I can prove ownership of the parts. I just need to make sure I document everything so if there is ever a question I can show what was done and where the parts came from.

So it looks like I can save myself from doing a lot of cutting and welding:biggrin:

 

[turbofish38]

Hey Jim I apoligize for wording it that way. I google'd Title 18 and thats what I got for the first result. It's hard to believe that your search didn't come up with the same thing was all.

I've been selling GM parts going on 28 years now and believe me if swapping tags was illegal than I wouldn't be selling truck cabs and body in whites.

 

[turbojimmy]

Hey Jim I apoligize for wording it that way. I google'd Title 18 and thats what I got for the first result. It's hard to believe that your search didn't come up with the same thing was all.

I've been selling GM parts going on 28 years now and believe me if swapping tags was illegal than I wouldn't be selling truck cabs and body in whites.

No problem.

This where I got the info:

Criminal Resource Manual 1359 Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Statutes -- General Overview

If it had the entire Title 18 I'd have seen the exceptions. I didn't bother looking any deeper so my post was misleading.

Jim

 

[Nick Micale]

.......I've been selling GM parts going on 28 years now and believe me if swapping tags was illegal than I wouldn't be selling truck cabs and body in whites.

State laws may vary, so it would be wise to check your state first.

In Arizona you CANNOT remove, replace or tamper with a VIN plate. If that part of the vehicle has been damaged, and the body, or body part replaced, the original VIN plate cannot be reused. It is procedure here for the state to issue an "Arizona VIN" decal with a new number.

The VIN that is stamped on the frame is the legal VIN, not the body VIN, unless replaced by an AZ decal.

Yes, I have repaired many stolen/recovery GN's over the years have been in the vehicle salvage business and I know this procedure first-hand.

I can also tell you this, if a VIN plate has been modified or tampered with and seen or noticed by law enforcement, the vehicle will be immediately impounded here, regardless where it is registered.:biggrin:

 

[turbofish38]

Nick you have a screwed up system down there. Title 18 is FEDERAL law. How does AZ statutes override it? Probally for the same reason AZ doesn't recognize MLKjr day. LOL. Seems to me Johnny Law has better things to do than to make criminals out of law abiding citizens. Let your conscience be your guide.

 

[usetaboost]

I'm thinking of using an already gutted shell a guy I know has that he was gonna use for a race car. Only rust is the driver's floor and the rest of the shell seems rust free and straight. So what sounds easier, swapping shells and everything back over or repairing the rust I have on the driver's quarter and the inside a pillar and putting an ACTUAL floor pan in the driver's side of this one. On top of that dealing with the stress cracks, driver's door striker that looks like its ready to bust off, repair the dents on the passenger side quarter and the crease on the roof from where the tree fell on it. The southern guys don't have to worry about rust and other beatings turbo buicks have to face, maybe thats why they don't like it done. But I do know this. There are plenty of places around here that sell take off cabs, boxes, and whatever else. If no one has a problem with a truck that has a new or different cab, why should it be any different to swap a shell as long as the vin is swapped? New cabs have to have vins too