What happens if using n/l converter in a lock up trans?

[boosted-para]

Curiosity killed the cat or so they say, but does using a non-lock up converter in a trans that is still set up for the lock up kill it?

I know heat is a factor and increased rpms also, but what else am I missing? I have read that 4th gear is actually the converter locking up, if this is the case then does the trans stay in "3rd"?

Thanks guys

Jay

 

[wb's87]

I am interested to follow this thread. I had my trans done like 3 yrs ago. At that time they installed a 9.5" pro-torque n/l convertor. Everything works great. The car does shift into OD at 45 mph. I read something about setting trans up for the N/L convertor but it was vague. I'm assuming that the shop that did it knows what they were doing.


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[pacecarta]

4th gear is a seperate gear has nothing to do with lockup
on the turbo regal lockup is controlled via the ECM and with ecm control it can only lockup in 3rd or 4th ..ecm uses speed signal from VSS and lockup should occur at around 48mph and disengage at 45 or whenever the brake pedal is depressed and provided the trans is in 3rd or 4th which the ecm can tell using the two switches inside the trans.
if you lockup the converter manually (grounding the F pin at aldl) lock can only occur in 2,3 or 4 (regardless of speed or signal seen at ecm) but not in 1st gear as there is no fluid flow in 1st for lockup engagement

running a lockup on a non lock is no good and should result in the lockup staying engaged all the time ,


there is a cheap kit (transgo 7-ccv http://www.summitracing.com/parts/trg-7-ccv ) that easily converts the pump to nonlock
it can be installed with trans in car by dropping the pan and removing the TCC solenoid , remove the retainer snap ring and disc , pull out the stock valve and springs and install the transgo part , and you could put the solenoid back in or remove it (your choice) and close it back up
and when you take converter off remove the oring and the checkball assembly from the input shaft ,note some builders remove the check valve even on lockups to increase the lockup speed)
and depending on chip you run dont leave the tcc connector unplugged as you may still need the trans to tell the ecu what gear it is in for 1-2 2-3 timing and fueling

 

[boosted-para]

So if I understand it, running a non lock up converter in a trans that has the lock up valve still in place results in the trans trying to stay in a lock up mode. There by generating?

I thought the meaning of lock up meant basically that the unit became 1? Meaning the crank and input shaft become one there by eliminating the slippage of the TC. So why would one want to eliminate it? If it decreases the rpm a little and makes it 1 unit wouldn't it run better?

 

[we4Mateo]

So if I understand it, running a non lock up converter in a trans that has the lock up valve still in place results in the trans trying to stay in a lock up mode. There by generating?

I thought the meaning of lock up meant basically that the unit became 1? Meaning the crank and input shaft become one there by eliminating the slippage of the TC. So why would one want to eliminate it? If it decreases the rpm a little and makes it 1 unit wouldn't it run better?

A locked TC locks the two halves together so there is no more slip. The crank and the input shaft are thus direct driven when lockup occurs. With a NL TC though, there is no clutch to lock the two halves of the TC together. When the ECM tries to lock the TC, it'll just run a lot of fluid to no where creating heat and a loss of max pressure to the other operations of the trans, from what I understand.

Bottom line, use a non lock valve with a NL TC and use a regular lock up set up with a locking TC, but do take the checkball out of the input shaft either way.

 

[wb's87]

Torque converters have always been sort of a mystery to me. Given what I know why would anyone want to run a NL. What is the advantage of NL V. LU? How can one tell if the trans is setup for the proper converter? I hope I'm not hijacking this thread but these are some things I've always wanted to know but afraid to ask.


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[pacecarta]

if you lock the converter there is no slippage , so if you install lockup on a non lock trans its going to want to spin the transmission input shaft at the same speed as the engine (and with the same torque potential) , once you put it in gear it will stall like not having a clutch on a manual trans



lockups arent usually designed to be as efficient because they fall back on the lockup clutch in high gear which will be 1:1 , Non Lock has the advantage of being able to be designed more efficient due to having more room inside the converter (no clutch pack ). the Non lock i run has only about 5.6% slip at over 700 hp , a lockup would be 1:1 if it could hold but at that level you shouldnt try to lock as the internal clutch would try to grab and that would slip and generate even more heat and running unlocked it could slip 10-20% ..or more

 

[pacecarta]

Torque converters have always been sort of a mystery to me. Given what I know why would anyone want to run a NL. What is the advantage of NL V. LU? How can one tell if the trans is setup for the proper converter? I hope I'm not hijacking this thread but these are some things I've always wanted to know but afraid to ask.


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http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=JS4tWEhNnh5zr429OokonA&bvm=bv.57155469,d.cGU

 

[we4Mateo]

Torque converters have always been sort of a mystery to me. Given what I know why would anyone want to run a NL. What is the advantage of NL V. LU? How can one tell if the trans is setup for the proper converter? I hope I'm not hijacking this thread but these are some things I've always wanted to know but afraid to ask.


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pacecarts nailed it. In summary, high hp cars benefit from the efficiency of a nl tc at the strip but street cars sometimes tend to lean towards a lu tc for fuel economy and climbing hills. There are plenty of guys making power that lock their tc but it can be hard on parts. This is a highly debated topic and it comes down to preference, but in a fast car, getting the right tc is crucial, and can get expensive quickly if numerous ones are tried or even if a lot of restalls are needed after tuning. Plus everyone is always adding power which changes how the tc works even behind the same engine.

 

[1952ray]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=JS4tWEhNnh5zr429OokonA&bvm=bv.57155469,d.cGU

Very cool video

 

[boosted-para]

That was an awesome video! Answered some questions. Thanx for the link and all the input

Sent from my SCH-R950 using TurboBuick Mobile mobile app

 

[wb's87]

Thanks for taking the time to explain. I have a much better understanding now of how the TC's work.

I couldn't get the video for some reason.

 

[pacecarta]

try this

 

[wb's87]

Wow. That was a cool video. Thanks.

Ok then? In my car after the trans shifts into OD (about 45 mph) It feels like the TC locks. I have a pro torque 9.5"NL convertor. Does this seem right?

 

[pacecarta]

heres an actual cutaway video that makes it all clear

 

[pacecarta]

in OD (around 50mph steady speed ) with foot steady on gas , slightly depress the brake pedal , if rpm goes up (usually about 2oo-300rpm on level grade) its a lockup , if it doesnt its not a lockup

 

[wb's87]

Another good video. Thanks again.

I'll try a test drive. Probably won't b til spring tho.

I am thinking that a NL TC should not have that lock feel? Does it make sense or am I missing something?

 

[pacecarta]

od is a drop depending on the line pressure in the shift kit it could feel like it locked going from 3-4

 

[we4Mateo]

Another good video. Thanks again.

I'll try a test drive. Probably won't b til spring tho.

I am thinking that a NL TC should not have that lock feel? Does it make sense or am I missing something?

Correct. If you feel it lock, you know depending on how hard and fast it locks up. You'll definitely notice a lack of rpm increase in the hills that is signature of a NL TC.

 

[wb's87]

After the shift into OD, several seconds later it almost feels like it shifts again. Should a NL do that?

I'm sorry for not quite getting this.