When do you go from a stock mount intercooler to a front?

[qws2000]

I have a SLIC intercooler, and I am building a decent street/strip motor which the builder suggested I get a front mount, Like RJC 325 or 425 big one. I seem to be lost on what I need

 

[Grumpy]

why don't ya run the car with the PTE thats in there an then get a wiz bang front mount so you can see how much quicker the car went ????

 

[OhioC5]

Who makes the Wiz Bang model? Sounds very intriguing.

 

[Grumpy]

Who makes the Wiz Bang model? Sounds very intriguing.

IF we ever went to one I had to buy it would be RJC's .. He has 2 different ones.

 

[TurboDave]

I know a lot of the "experts" will scoff at my bit of advice, but..... Your question was, when to go from a stock location IC to a front mount.
My answer, and mine alone (and I'm walking talking proof it works even on a MILD build). Anyway, my answer is: You make the switch when you want to make more boost without changing ANYTHING else.
I don't own a fast car at all (best it ever ran was 11.6@117 on a bone stock long block), but I'm running a CAS front mount (one of the best ever made for out cars). Now that the car is retired from racing, and detuned for pure street use, it's only a 12.5 car in pure 93 octane, real street tire trim, but...... Care to guess how much boost I'm running with NO alky! (I'm also a non alky advocate, but that's another story)?
My present state of tune is CAS V2/TE44:
21# of boost in 1st and 2nd gears, pulled back by the Pro 18# of boost in 3rd.
21.5deg wot timing in 1st and 2nd, pulled back by the Pro to 19deg in 3rd.
11.4 WOT AFR on 93 octane.

Am I saying that anybody that runs a FMIC will be able to enjoy these levels of boost and timing without the alky crutch? No, not at all. All FMIC's are not created equal, and all tunes are not created equal. It took me a LOT of years to figure out how to tune these things.

Oh sure, you may also very well suffer some minor to major cooling issues when moving to a FMIC. Many people do (I don't). The reason is, your cooling system has to be in perfect working order (many folks that jump to a FMIC forget the cooling system, and then bitch when it runs hot), and it doesn't hurt to run dual fans, or a REAL good single.

In contrast, my 87, also with a bone stock block can only push 15.5# of boost before it starts tickling the knock sensor, with slightly less timing also. But it's running a stock IC/TA49 combo.

Sorry for the rambling, I'll duck out of the way now. You'll get a TON of advice telling you that you need to be running a fast car to make a FMIC worth while. I consider such advice counter productive, but that's just my humble opinion.

 

[USAFbuickthrust]

If you do go to front mount, and if the stretched is in good working order.....i want dibs. I do agree though^^^^

 

[TType85]

I am not going to scoff at TurboDave's advice, and I am FAR from an expert but I would stick with the PTE stretch unless your shooting for 9's or faster.

I think Dave's car is more of an anomaly than anything. FMIC's are nice (I currently have a CAS V2 on this car) but I doubt you would see much difference between one and the PTE SLIC. The car is easier to work on with the FMIC, but as Dave said, the cooling system needs to be spot on. You already have a good radiator, so with the upgrade to a FMIC you are going to want to look at some better fans.

 

[TURBOPOWERED68]

I have a SLIC intercooler, and I am building a decent street/strip motor which the builder suggested I get a front mount, Like RJC 325 or 425 big one. I seem to be lost on what I need

Who is the builder?

 

[mgmshar]

The best time to buy one is when a friend from your car club decides to sell one cheap! That's what I did when I bought my CAS V2, and I've never looked back in the 10 years I've had it. Yes, I had some cooling issues, now overcome. And yes, I seem to be able to run a little more boost on weaker fuel than others (not quite in Dave's category). Most people would look at my combo and say that the FMIC is overkill, and it is. But even at my level, it's a benefit to performance.

YMMV

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Turbo Buick

 

[The Radius Kid]

Just to chime in with a quick observation:
With all the talk of SLIC vs. F/M,has anyone noticed that the OEM's are using F/M's in a big way for their turbocharged engines?
Seems they're after as much H/P (and mileage) as they can get from smaller,more fuel efficient engines.
Of course that involves as big a boost level as they can get as safely as possible to make the smaller engine perform in a big way .
Just throwing that out there.

 

[TType85]

The best time to buy one is when a friend from your car club decides to sell one cheap! That's what I did when I bought my CAS V2, and I've never looked back in the 10 years I've had it. Yes, I had some cooling issues, now overcome. And yes, I seem to be able to run a little more boost on weaker fuel than others (not quite in Dave's category). Most people would look at my combo and say that the FMIC is overkill, and it is. But even at my level, it's a benefit to performance.

YMMV

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Turbo Buick

Did you go from stock to the FM? Stock -> dutt neck will gain a couple psi due to less restriction. stock -> PTE SLIC is an even bigger gain. PTE SLIC to FMIC not sure if there would be much?

Just to chime in with a quick observation:
With all the talk of SLIC vs. F/M,has anyone noticed that the OEM's are using F/M's in a big way for their turbocharged engines?
Seems they're after as much H/P (and mileage) as they can get from smaller,more fuel efficient engines.
Of course that involves as big a boost level as they can get as safely as possible to make the smaller engine perform in a big way .
Just throwing that out there.

Maybe for space in the engine compartment? IIRC subaru and mazda have top mount IC's FMIC's also add weight to the car.

 

[TurboDave]

Just to chime in with a quick observation:
With all the talk of SLIC vs. F/M,has anyone noticed that the OEM's are using F/M's in a big way for their turbocharged engines?
Seems they're after as much H/P (and mileage) as they can get from smaller,more fuel efficient engines.
Of course that involves as big a boost level as they can get as safely as possible to make the smaller engine perform in a big way .
Just throwing that out there.

Yes, my twin turbo (Ecoboost) Lincoln MKT uses a huge front mount. All of Ford's Ecoboost setups use a large front mount. At least the V6's do, and the 2.0 I4's also.

 

[mgmshar]

Did you go from stock to the FM? Stock -> dutt neck will gain a couple psi due to less restriction. stock -> PTE SLIC is an even bigger gain. PTE SLIC to FMIC not sure if there would be much?

To be fair, I went straight from stock to the CAS V2. At the time, I was running my trusty ole' TA-49 and red-stripe injectors with the stock I/C. About the time I was thinking about upgrading, a friend from my car club decided to sell a CAS V2 he had laying around, so I jumped on it. I figured "once I buy this thing, I will never need to upgrade my intercooler again." So far, I've been right. I don't even think the PTE SLIC was available back then (about 2002 or 2003 time-frame).

I do remember reading the famous article by Bob Dick on intercooler testing, and it showed that with the larger FMIC's like the CAS V2, you could get the boosted air back down to nearly ambient temperature with lower pressure drop than with the SLIC's that were available at the time. I'm a big fan of using data to make decisions rather than opinions, so I felt good about the FMIC. The data from the article clearly shows that the cooling offered by the FMIC's was better than the cooling from the stock or SL intercoolers. Cooler air entering the engine equals less chance of knock. Remember, this was before alky injection became popular, so intercooling was all we had. Testing was done on a car that was running low-12's at 21 psi of boost - a mild car by today's standards. The data were taken as the car was running down the quarter-mile, so it's a good representation of what happens when you make a pass at the track.

Here's the article: http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/bob_dick.htm

(note that the "TB Inlet" and "Turbo Outlet" data was accidentally reversed in the tables for the stock and Duttweiler Neck IC's)

On the downside, I did have to upgrade my radiator and fans, and I do get the infamous part-throttle turbo flutter/surge at around 10psi due to the huge volume of air between the turbo and throttle body.

Again, YMMV.

PS: I have a 2011 Hyundai Sonata Turbo as my daily driver, 2.0L engine making 274 hp. It makes about 15 to 16 psi of boost when I nail it with 87-octane gas. And yes, it has a sizable FMIC.

 

[TType85]

To be fair, I went straight from stock to the CAS V2. At the time, I was running my trusty ole' TA-49 and red-stripe injectors with the stock I/C. About the time I was thinking about upgrading, a friend from my car club decided to sell a CAS V2 he had laying around, so I jumped on it. I figured "once I buy this thing, I will never need to upgrade my intercooler again." So far, I've been right. I don't even think the PTE SLIC was available back then (about 2002 or 2003 time-frame).

That's the best way to do it I am not sure when the PTE one came out but I know the V2 was better than the stretch IC's that were out there at the time when we got the one for the car I have now.

I do remember reading the famous article by Bob Dick on intercooler testing, and it showed that with the larger FMIC's like the CAS V2, you could get the boosted air back down to nearly ambient temperature with lower pressure drop than with the SLIC's that were available at the time. I'm a big fan of using data to make decisions rather than opinions, so I felt good about the FMIC. The data from the article clearly shows that the cooling offered by the FMIC's was better than the cooling from the stock or SL intercoolers. Cooler air entering the engine equals less chance of knock. Remember, this was before alky injection became popular, so intercooling was all we had. Testing was done on a car that was running low-12's at 21 psi of boost - a mild car by today's standards. The data were taken as the car was running down the quarter-mile, so it's a good representation of what happens when you make a pass at the track.

Here's the article: http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/bob_dick.htm

(note that the "TB Inlet" and "Turbo Outlet" data was accidentally reversed in the tables for the stock and Duttweiler Neck IC's)

On the downside, I did have to upgrade my radiator and fans, and I do get the infamous part-throttle turbo flutter/surge at around 10psi due to the huge volume of air between the turbo and throttle body.

Again, YMMV.

The stock and dutt neck IC's also were not tested the same as the FMIC's and other SLIC's. If you look at the chart in the article, the CAS v4 is pretty close to the V2 and better than the ESP one. Even Cottons SLIC was better than the ESP one.

Are the FMIC's better at cooling the air charge? Yes.
Are they worth upgrading from a good SLIC like the PTE one or a V4? Maybe, maybe not depends on your goals.

The TSA cars are running stock IC's and are in the 10's/low 11's. They are most likely purpose built to extract every last HP out of stock parts, but that shows what can be done through the stock IC.

They poster in this post http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/threads/dyno-results.393507/ is making almost 520HP through a dutt neck IC and a stock MAF.

If I were the original poster, I would stick with the PTE and look for more HP elsewhere.

 

[TType85]

I have a SLIC intercooler, and I am building a decent street/strip motor which the builder suggested I get a front mount, Like RJC 325 or 425 big one. I seem to be lost on what I need

What times to you run with the combo in your signature? The parts list looks like it should be mid-low 10's.

 

[qws2000]

Never ran the car down track, issue is im changing the combo I just picked up the new 6466 which will be sitting on a 109 .30 over stroker with a mean set of heads and cam, builder is putting motor at close to 900hp and said should upgrade intercooler so I did RJC325 fmi......

 

[TType85]

Never ran the car down track, issue is im changing the combo I just picked up the new 6466 which will be sitting on a 109 .30 over stroker with a mean set of heads and cam, builder is putting motor at close to 900hp and said should upgrade intercooler so I did RJC325 fmi......

900HP (assuming at the flywheel) is a mid-high 9sec power. That is a pretty serious build.

 

[Slow91z]

I have a SLIC intercooler, and I am building a decent street/strip motor which the builder suggested I get a front mount, Like RJC 325 or 425 big one. I seem to be lost on what I need

Obviously you are getting a ton of opinions and there are a ton more out there...mine opinion is the time to change to a front mount is as soon as you get tired of working around that retarded stock location.

Intercoolers go where the fresh air is, not in hot engine compartments making life harder everytime you do anything in that area of the engine compartment.

Yes cooling issues can arise, but if your cooling system can't handle an intercooler out front, it was on the edge anyway.

 

[qws2000]

Slow, You are very correct in what you say.... The car has a great rad a huge Alradco which keeps the car at 162-168 on the worst days with the A/C running full tilt... I talked to Jason for like 45min yesterday and on Tues morn a 315xl front mount intercooler with polished pipes will be here... I this what my combo needs.

 

[pmoore4321]

....as soon as you get tired of working around that retarded stock location.

I have a SLIC, but I couldn't agree more with that statement.