I think you have to look at it like this: first of all these top notch engines builders are like artists from the old school : they constantly expand on building the best strongest motors on trial and error or through their way of testing from track runs etc, these engine builders are like artists because what they do with their motors is truely works of art and you need to seek them out, their reputations are well spoken for and they are constantly busy, if you take on too much work quality control can suffer, so to maintain the best quality they maintain certain amounts of builds that they feel they can control-it isnt about mass producing-its about works of art and qualitythat they can stand behind! i was very impressed when i looked over the workmanship that Bobbie from RPE did on my motor,what motivated me to have him build my motor is when Jack Cotton told me that he sometimes has 300 or more runs on his motor per year without breaking anything on the motor before a refreshening which was enough for me!
Who builds the very BEST Stage 2 Buick Engines?
- Thread starter VegasSE
- Start date
Welcome!
By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
- Messages
- 9,208
Since we have already had a discussion about your "project" GN, I thought I would add my comments here.:smile:
We do 2 things real well, build Buick V-6 engines and build complete race cars. Our current achievements include the first stock block 3.8 into the 8's and the record-setting TSM stock block GN for the past 2 years.
As far as building Buick V-6 turbo engines, we have built, shipped and installed over 400 of the within the past few years. These are stock builds as well as 8 sec. stage and TA alum engines. I don't know of any builder that has done more TA alum blocks than we have since they were introduced.
The protype TA and first produced block is in my race car with over 300 runs, and has provided us with LOTS of knowledge and feedback on building and prepping these engines. There are currently 2 TA engines being finished in our shop along with a few stock blocks.
Also, ALL our engine machine work and assembly is done in-house by a master engine builder - Mike Zimmerman. He has done many NHRA and other Stock class and Pro-mod engines for racers around the country.
Building and freshening engines for racers MUST be done in a very precise and timely manner. Our usual build time is 6-8 weeks, not a year or so like some shops.:smile:
You also want a complete, fast, turn-key car. This is also an area where we have the knowledge and expertise. We have built many fast cars including GN's. We are currently build a 7 sec. back-half GN [one of the TA engines will power it!] and 9 and 10 sec. GN's.
We have the expertise in all the areas needed for a complete package - installation of all parts, drive train, suspension, engine management and the all-important tuning.
The tuning on a chassis dyno is done be Jan Moeller who has many years experience in engine management systems, and currently is the crew chief on the Gallina/Freemen 7 sec. twin turbo Buick.
Sorry to ramble on, but over the years very seldom do the faster "Left Coast" Buicks participate in the East coast race events, and we get overlooked for what we do and have done!
We do 2 things real well, build Buick V-6 engines and build complete race cars. Our current achievements include the first stock block 3.8 into the 8's and the record-setting TSM stock block GN for the past 2 years.
As far as building Buick V-6 turbo engines, we have built, shipped and installed over 400 of the within the past few years. These are stock builds as well as 8 sec. stage and TA alum engines. I don't know of any builder that has done more TA alum blocks than we have since they were introduced.
The protype TA and first produced block is in my race car with over 300 runs, and has provided us with LOTS of knowledge and feedback on building and prepping these engines. There are currently 2 TA engines being finished in our shop along with a few stock blocks.
Also, ALL our engine machine work and assembly is done in-house by a master engine builder - Mike Zimmerman. He has done many NHRA and other Stock class and Pro-mod engines for racers around the country.
Building and freshening engines for racers MUST be done in a very precise and timely manner. Our usual build time is 6-8 weeks, not a year or so like some shops.:smile:
You also want a complete, fast, turn-key car. This is also an area where we have the knowledge and expertise. We have built many fast cars including GN's. We are currently build a 7 sec. back-half GN [one of the TA engines will power it!] and 9 and 10 sec. GN's.
We have the expertise in all the areas needed for a complete package - installation of all parts, drive train, suspension, engine management and the all-important tuning.
The tuning on a chassis dyno is done be Jan Moeller who has many years experience in engine management systems, and currently is the crew chief on the Gallina/Freemen 7 sec. twin turbo Buick.
Sorry to ramble on, but over the years very seldom do the faster "Left Coast" Buicks participate in the East coast race events, and we get overlooked for what we do and have done!
EightSecV6
MDBL
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
- Messages
- 2,514
EightSecV6
MDBL
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
- Messages
- 2,514
GNBRETT
Pelennor Fields
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2004
- Messages
- 15,860
I referred VegasSE to you Bill but apparently there was some miscommunication between you and him.
I would like to see a v-6 buick engine make 300 runs from 8.50 to 9.00 sec, if one you engine builders can say your short blocks and rod and main bearings will make 300 hard runs from 9.00 to 8.50 then i will have a short block built by you, because i only get from 50 to 60 passes on my rod and main bearings and i only run 9.001 to 9.30 i have used top named bearings and i have plenty of oil pressure so in my old age [67] i must be doing something wrong, sorry to get off subject,
ttypewhite
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2001
- Messages
- 4,156
I don't know any engine builder that would commit to that when they are not involved in the tuning to preserve their work done on the engine, or the rest of the components in the car for that matter(ie: stall converter, gears, injectors, wiring in your car etc). If and when you find that engine builder let me know too please.
- Joined
- May 27, 2001
- Messages
- 9,475
Only 300? The motor in Scott Winsett's old car had between 500-800 runs from 8.00-9.50.
EightSecV6
MDBL
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
- Messages
- 2,514
I can HONESTLY whole heartedly tell you that Avon's TSO engine has well over 300 passes on it and I bet none of them are slower than 9.00. We dont have his new mill completed yet so he is starting the season with the old one. He flat out wins races, the car is consistant,nearly the quickest and fastest in the class and it stays together win after win.
I use King bearings Odell, they are hard to beat.
I will be calling you tomorrow.
Already using the term Stage 2...
Your a fast learner Mr. VegasSE. A stage 2 is the only way to make your desired whp. Why did you chose Sound Performance in ILL over the much closer WOTM in Arizona ? BTW, I know your hungry for knowledge on Turbo Buicks so click on this link: Block Photo Guide it'll give you some more insight on the features & differences between Buick Motorsports Stage 1,2 & production "109 Blocks. Info on the aluminum TA block can be found in their website Welcome to TA Performance!, which I think you've already visited ?? Happy reading.
I most definitely am going with the TA aluminum Stage 2. No question about that. I chose Heffner Performance for the Lamborghini. I chose Sound Performance for my Supra, and I want to make sure I choose someone just as highly regarded and proven for my Grand Nationals.
Your a fast learner Mr. VegasSE. A stage 2 is the only way to make your desired whp. Why did you chose Sound Performance in ILL over the much closer WOTM in Arizona ? BTW, I know your hungry for knowledge on Turbo Buicks so click on this link: Block Photo Guide it'll give you some more insight on the features & differences between Buick Motorsports Stage 1,2 & production "109 Blocks. Info on the aluminum TA block can be found in their website Welcome to TA Performance!, which I think you've already visited ?? Happy reading.
TurboDiverArt
The Guru Thorn
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2002
- Messages
- 1,655
Not to compare but I got 300 passes on the first engine but that was only 9.5’s to 9.8’s in a 3600lb car (with driver). After the refresh from Bobby at RPE I got another 150 mid to low 9's. Bobby tore it down and the bearings were fine. The heads had given up the farm from heat cycles after at least 450 runs (we don't know the history before that). We tore the engine down last season not because the engine was giving us trouble (still running 9.2's at 150) but we wanted to step up and be more competitive in TSO. That new engine goes in tonight!
Art.
TurboDiverArt
The Guru Thorn
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2002
- Messages
- 1,655
I'll second that, Avon's engine just stays together! Don't know how but the more he throws at it, the more the engine performs.
Art.
Your a fast learner Mr. VegasSE. A stage 2 is the only way to make your desired whp. Why did you chose Sound Performance in ILL over the much closer WOTM in Arizona ? BTW, I know your hungry for knowledge on Turbo Buicks so click on this link: Block Photo Guide it'll give you some more insight on the features & differences between Buick Motorsports Stage 1,2 & production "109 Blocks. Info on the aluminum TA block can be found in their website Welcome to TA Performance!, which I think you've already visited ?? Happy reading.
Sound Performance or Titan would be my two choices to build the Supra. They have the longest standing reputation and cars all over the country with tons of miles on them. I personally know several guys with Sound Performance built Supras making at or near 1000whp that pound these cars without any drive train issues for years. In my opinion, it's Titan or SP if you want a big hp stroker Supra.
As for the GN's, I don't make any firm decisions without researching. I don't mind SPENDING money, but I loathe WASTING it.
SUPRA OR V6 BUICK. duttweiler is the place, talk to kenny or watch our car run on the 5th here in vegas. living in vegas make it a better choise. the other engine builder's are also very good at what they do. kenny's motor will come tuned and can be installed at his shop. he is the best in the business. with the fastest buick motors in the world. period.
Try to nail down some sort of time frame and understanding so you do not get discouraged with your project just in case the engine builder takes 2 years to get your engine done.
Well, I've done $300,000 complete car builds and never waited more than 4 months, so anything much beyond that isn't really acceptable. I've spoken to two of the best already and they say that's very realistic. That's about my time frame. We aren't starting with a fresh model of car or something unknown, and I presume these guys have done HUNDREDS of them before, so for it to take more than 4 months to complete the car would be ridiculous.
TurboDiverArt
The Guru Thorn
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2002
- Messages
- 1,655
Built, shipped and installed 400 motors.
Lets do some simple math:
3 years = 36 months / 400 = 11.1 engines a month or 22.2 every 8 weeks, built, shipped and installed....
That's almost unbelievable....
I sure wish somebody with a TSO or TSM car would get something done by him so we can accurately do a comparison. I know Kenny builds great motors, but I am not aware of any heads up cars that have done anything with his powerplants.
I think it is pretty cool you get your engine from him tuned. It must make things a little easier for you when you don't have to worry about that.
