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Who welds cracks in factory Headers?

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buickturbo-t

Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2005
Messages
48
My drivers side header is cracked again. It has been welded before and now has cracked alongside the previous weld. I'm looking for someone to weld it up and would like to know what method they would use.
 
Cracks BAD!!!!

I'm sure I will get flamed for this like every other time I post mechanical advice but here it is. :) I have welded several of them on my car and friends cars with my mig welder and all have been ok. I just clean them up and weld them no preheat or bolting to the head. I also never put gaskets between the manifold and the head, I check them after I weld, and if they are warped I surface them just enough to make them true. Hope this is of some help. If we were closer I would try to give a hand. I don't know if it would be worth trying to repair one that has been welded on already. Maybe someone else can give some better insight.
 
The key is to stop welding it. With the typical weld job, done by guys who have no real metallurgic understanding, you will crack again and again and again, ad nauseum. The metal gets annealed after welding. The only time the metal is structurally sound, is when it leaves the factory. Even most of the aftermarket people dont know how to weld a header. Case in point. I bought some JBA headers for my cobra 3 or 4 years ago. The port entrances were really ugly, so I got my die grinder and put a stone on it to start shaping it. It seemed to just fall into the metal like butter. I wanted to confirm that the metal was soft, so i stuck a burr in the die grinder (the same for porting), and I was able to shape all the runners with total ease with this bit. I shouldnt have been able to, had they known what they were doing when they made these headers. That metal and those welds are supposed to be glass hard, and you should only be able to shape them with a stone. These were the creme de la creme of cobra headers, but I dont know why, given the fact there were so many reports of these headers cracking. After shaping those ports, I understood why it was happening to so many. The steel had been annealed from improper welding. Ive had quite a bit of metallurgic experience through my job, so I can say that the reason this is happening, is because while welding, the steel is being taken to a temperature at, or higher than it was when it was originally formed at the mill. Then they are likely quenching the metal (dumping it in water or oil) while its at this temperature, and this permanently locks the molecules into a position that gives the steel these soft characteristics. Say that in order to harden a steel, you take it to 1750 degrees, let it soak, and then immediately quench it. The steel is now glass hard, but very brittle. (just using these terms to make it understandable) The harder it is, the more abrasion resistant it tends to be as well. The next step is tempering. You heat it back up to a temperature, less than the temperature it was when you hardened it. The tempering takes away a little hardness, but alot of the brittleness. Say that in this step, you temper it at 300 degrees, then quench it. Now its lost a little hardness (not much), and some brittleness. Instead of tempering at 300, say you temper at 900. Now it has a nice balance between hardness and brittleness. You're now in the tempering area of most springs. They are hard (takes dikes or a stone to cut), yet you can flex it up to a certain point without it yielding, or permantently deforming, like a coat hanger would. Now say instead of 900, you tempered at 1200. Youve now lost alot of the hardness and abrasion resistance, but it is very flexible, yet very prone to yielding. The higher the tempering temperature, the closer you are bringing the steel back to its pre-hardening state. Brittleness doesnt really exist. Its just a way of describing the range of flexibility without permanent deformation, yielding. You take a 3 foot long, 1/4" diameter steel rod, with a rockwell hardness of 68, which is very hard, yet very "brittle", and hang a 1 pound weight off the end of it. You measure how far the rod would bend from the weight. Now get the same bar, with a rockwell of 40 and do the same thing. It will bend the exact same distance as the hard steel would have. The temper would decide how much the metal can flex before it gives, either by shattering or cracking, or by permanently deforming, which the softer metal would do. The hard metal has very little range in which it can bend and snap back to its original state. Try to bend it say, 4 inches, it will break. The soft, annealed metal...try to bend it 4 inches, it will permanently deform. Get a steel that has a medium temper. Bend it 4 inches, and it snaps back to position. The temper will determine how far the metal can be stressed before it gives by either cracking or bending. After welding the header improperly, there are spots all over the header that have different hardnesses/tempers. You torque that header down, and the hard spots will crack, and the soft spots will stretch and deform. It will usually crack where the soft, annealed area meets the glass hard area. The quality control procedures and process control are very strict with OEM products, usually. They would never let such a header leave the factory. Now say that after 18 years worth of heat cycles on a factory kick ass header, the temper is going to drift into an area where it finally cracks. Its unavoidable. Especially if people like to open their hood all the time when the headers are still smoking hot. Every time you do that, you are altering the temper a little bit. Welding it will only make it worse. You need a new header. Whew that was long winded! Sorry! :D
 
i welded mine

I use a mig welder with a 90-10 mix of argon/carbon dioxide along with superarc LA 90 wire. Some people think that wire is wire and gas is gas WRONG if it made no differance they would only make on of everthing. Kinda like roller cam flat, tappet cam!!! If you pay shipping i'll weld them for you.
 
headem off

I welded mine up about five years ago and it has yet to crack again.It's not that big of a deal.Out of the dozen or so I've welded up for pepole,some of which were split damn near in two,I don't believe they've cracked again.If they do,no big deal to weld'em up again.Our stock headers may not be the best quality stainless,but they lend themselves to repair pretty well.It's cheaper than buying more stockers or aftermarket headers.Just take it easy on the heat while welding,and let it cool naturally.And I can't even spell "metalurgy".
 
Thanks for posting guys. I have considered buying a set of TA Performance headers(and have heard great things about them), but I have a hard time spending that kind of money knowing that the stockers have gone into the 10's. I don't know much about welding but after welding the stock ones the first time and not even putting 10,000 miles on them and have them crack alongside the weld makes me think that I’m fighting a loosing battle. My father tells me that I can pull the factory ones off and weld them quite a few times for $700.00, and is a sense he is right, because I can have both sides off in an hour tops. I don't know how fast my car will go in the future, but I also need to think about that.
 
EricB said:
I use a mig welder with a 90-10 mix of argon/carbon dioxide along with superarc LA 90 wire. Some people think that wire is wire and gas is gas WRONG if it made no differance they would only make on of everthing. Kinda like roller cam flat, tappet cam!!! If you pay shipping i'll weld them for you.


Eric, I will keep you in mind depending on what I decide to do.

Thanks Adam
 
I have had quite a bit of success by using a small drill bit to stop drill the ends of each crack, Cleaning the entire header in a blast cabinet and TIG welding the cracks using a SS filler rod. MIG welding will work, but it puts much more heat into the part.

The back side of the weld should be protected by back purging the area with shielding gas or with a product called Solar Flux. It is important to protect the weld from oxygen.
 
Vader, that was an extremely long post, and much of it was just WRONG! For example, quenching a weld will NOT leave it soft. And a weld in mild steel, no matter how it is heat treated, will not get hard. Hardness, and brittleness, is a function of the alloying elements, as well as heat treat. Also, properties of metals are dependent on crystalline structure within the grains, and the size/shape/distribution of the grains. Metals don't have molecules.
Buickturbo-t, Take the advice of EricB, and Big Head Chris. Find a welder who KNOWS what he/she is doing. Make sure they know what the metal is that they are welding on- it looks like mild steel, but it's actually a 400 series stainless.
 
Ormand said:
Vader, that was an extremely long post, and much of it was just WRONG! For example, quenching a weld will NOT leave it soft. And a weld in mild steel, no matter how it is heat treated, will not get hard. Hardness, and brittleness, is a function of the alloying elements, as well as heat treat. Also, properties of metals are dependent on crystalline structure within the grains, and the size/shape/distribution of the grains. Metals don't have molecules.
.
Ok we have a guy with a tremendous number of hours spent actually doing this, and a guy who misunderstood everything he read on the subject.
Metals dont have molecules?
Are you ****ting me? Is there some parallel dimension where matter doesnt have molecules?

Also, properties of metals are dependent on crystalline structure within the grains, and the size/shape/distribution of the grains.

Um....how do those crystalline structures organize themselves? A good marching song? No. The different elements that are sprinkled in with the steel give it certain characteristics (alloy), but it is the tempering process which organizes them in a useful way.
I wasnt talking about the weld being soft. I was talking about weldings ability to soften all the surrounding metal.
Also, its not quenching that makes it soft. Its quenching at a specific temperature than CAN make it soft. Its the temperature it was at when you quenched it, and how rapidly. Its also the rate of quench. water=fast quench. Oil=slower quench. Powder=alot slower. There are also tempering profiles that can be followed to get all kinds of characteristics out of it.
Hardness and brittleness have to do with the STRUCTURING of the alloying elements, which is the RESULT of the heat treating and tempering process. The molecules of the "alloying elements" organize themselves into a certain position, and the quenching process can freeze them into whatever position you want them to be in.
I was making an example of oil and air hardening steels, but the general principal is the same. I was explaining youngs modulus in a way that anyone could understand, and heat treating and temperings effect on this.
Now your mild steel and its inability to harden theory. Ever hear of case hardening??? Ive done quite a bit of that as well.
The only way you'll get this is if you go buy yourself a "cheap" $5000 hardening oven, some case hardening powder, heat treating bags, a water bucket, some blue tempered spring steel, some O1 oil hardening steel, some A2 air hardening steel, some C1018 carbon steel and go to town.
 
A good marching song!!! LMAO hahahahah. I think the only thing w/o molecules is a proton. hah.
 
Just weld a 'T' piece between the two where the crack is (after you weld the crack of course) This will help keep them together longer.
 
Yeah I also wanted to comment about the turbo heat shield and why its there. Its not there to protect everything from heat, as much as its there to prevent a rapid cooling of the turbo/elbow/DP gasket ring. That steel and iron need to cool gradually, or you can start cracking and warping things. What causes warping? The temper is no longer uniform.
Unsubscribing.
 
Vader, I have a Master of Science degree in metallurgy. I don't think you want to try to match references with me, not on this subject. There is nothing in the reference you provided that in any way substantiates the statements you made in your previous post. You are just showing your ignorance.
A molecule is defined as "The smallest particle of a substance that retains the chemical and physical properties of the substance and is composed of two or more atoms; a group of like or different atoms held together by chemical forces."
It applies to chemical compounds with defined chemical formulae, like H20, or O2, or H2SO4. There is no such formula for a metal. A metal can be a pure metal, like Fe. Or it can be an alloy, which is much more common, and is a mixture, or maybe a solid solution.
So, basically, we have a guy who has spent years actually doing this, but does not have the basic training to understand what he has done. We have another guy with an education in the field, and more than 30 years of experience "actually doing this", so there is experience, PLUS the training to understand that experience.
For example, "case hardening" of mild steel is possible because the process infuses carbon into the surface of the steel. The actual alloy is changed. You will have a substrate of soft mild steel, with an overlay of higher carbon hard steel.
There are several mechanisms for hardening, but none of them apply to mild steel- it just won't get hard. Not enough carbon, or other alloying elements to sustain any of the mechanisms.
Next time you feel lecturing, how about if you choose something you REALLY know?
 
Chemistry

Molecule- Particle made of two or more atoms bound tightly enough together so that they act as a single particle with no charge

Are there molecules of Stainless steel? NO

Are there molecules in steel? I don't know all the ingrediants to make steel, however depends on the metal in the alloy, there could be. Understand i'm not saying you could remove a molecule of steel, it doesn't exisit, im saying the metals that make the mixture could have formed a molucule, I would need to know what elemts are use to make the mixture.

Homogenous mixture of matter- (alloy) Made of two or more pure substances, haveing the same consistancy or state of matter through out.

Example, Brass, a solid solution of coper and zinc
There is no Brass molecule, there is just brass and coper.

Kind of like a twist ice cream cone of choc. and Van. They are simply a mixture, ther is not a Molecule of choc/van. They have not joined, they just mixed together.

An alloy is just two or more metal elements that have been taken to the molten state and mixed togther. (two would be binary, then trinary ect....) This started back in the dark ages when alchemist tried to turn one form of metal into a different kind of metal. Basically trying to make thier own gold. We now know, thats not possible, Daltons atomic theory, tells us that a atom of lead will always be an atom of lead.

Hope this helps.
DAve
 
I absolutely cannot compete with your life's work. But given some of your comments, it seemed you were totally misunderstanding me. I wasnt talking about cracking welds. I was talking about the effects of heat and tempering on steel. The effects Im talking about DO exist, and they do happen. These effects are what causes warping and cracking. You end up with spots of high carbon content and low carbon content...hard and brittle, soft and malliable. If what I was saying about annealing, hardening, tempering of the headers did not happen or exist, the headers would not crack. But they do.
I know why case hardening works. The control of carbon is what creates most of steels characteristics. I did just notice that I said that hardness and brittleness have to do with the structuring of the alloying elements, (makes no sense) when in fact I meant the way the carbon is structured. The alloying agents can affect hardness and brittleness to a small degree, but their purpose is to alter cutting/forming ability and stability among other things.
Are you saying that steels, do not share 2 or more atoms which are chemically infused? Maybe I truly do misunderstand this, but Iron is naturally found as an iron oxide, Pyrite or Hematite. This is a molecule. FE2O3 or FES2. Its then reduced to pure ferrite. Steel is always infused with this or that or this or that. The ferrite molecules and carbon molecules and whatever else molecules that make up a certain steel...Does their structure and relationship NOT change with heating and tempering? Of course it does, and thats my point.
Regardless of all this, carbon amounts and structure do change when heated to extremes and cooled in a given fashion.
I brought up case hardening for a reason. Because you can case harden mild steel. You say that hardening is possible, and then follow that up with saying its not possible. I have personally achieved a full depth harden of mild steel about 1/8" thick. Not just an overlay. Overlay or not, mild steel does harden with the addition of carbon. Have you ever taken a used header off a car, and not found carbon in the pipes? You take mild steel. You heat it to extremes in some points to weld, while the temperature uniformity is not there. You have a big layer of carbon inside the pipe. Now that section you just heated up to probably 1500-2000 degrees....did that big layer of carbon inside NOT have an effect on the temper? Do you now NOT have a glass hard spot surrounded by a soft spot? CRACK!
That guy in an earlier post was on the money about blasting the headers out, getting all the carbon out, and shielding the inner pipes with shielding gas.
 
If I'm not mistaken these headers are made of 409 Stainless steel. And from what I remember of my metalurgy classes, 409 SS cannot be hardened to any great degree.

I do beleive we have a different mechanism working on the areas that always seem to crack. Heating and cooling of the legs of this header cause the legs to move. Mechanical stress and fatigue are the causes of the cracking.

Ever notice that you first hear the exhaust leak when the header is cold but much less when hot? I have. That tells me that the metal is MOVING!!
Ever notice that the passenger side never cracks? Same material with a big old turbo hung out on the end too.

I don't have any data to back up my opinion, but I've had great success
repairing these driver's side headers using common sense, proper welding techniques and a brace welded between the two legs.
 
I give up!!!!!

All I know is that i will weld the headers and yes the passanger side does crack. I can prove that. as for as heat treating or cooling cycles or metalulergy or what ever it is I give up! that is between ya'll. all i can do is weld the headers. I bet you could ship them alot for 700.00 dollars.
 
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